Just curious as to what the 2 best 1500m guys could run for 200m in their day?
Was it under 23 seconds?
Just curious as to what the 2 best 1500m guys could run for 200m in their day?
Was it under 23 seconds?
4:10 mile pace for 5000 meters wrote:
Just curious as to what the 2 best 1500m guys could run for 200m in their day?
Was it under 23 seconds?
Are you talking rolling start or stationary?
Cram was running low 23's in training in the summer of 85, "with a couple of yards rolling start". This makes me think he could have run 23.5-23.7 from blocks in a competition.
I don't believe that either EL G or Lagat had better 400 speed than Cram.
Neither broke 1:46 for 800, although obviously both had to be capable of faster.
I'd say Lagat and EL G would have trouble breaking 24.0 from blocks. but could probably do so with some specific training.
From a rolling start, then I'd say 23 low.
stationary
4:10 mile pace for 5000 meters wrote:
stationary
With a couple of weeks practice of blocks when in 1500m peak form, then I'd say 23.5 - 24.0 FAT in a race with athletes of similar 200 ability.
If I had to choose a winner over 200m, then I'd say Lagat, 23.67 to 23.92! LOL
I guess they are the sort of times women capable of running in their national championships could run.
Cram didn't really work his top 200m speed. All of the work, or nearly all, was race pace for 800 or mile. Lagat was running speed work with Rudisha in 2012, according to the latter, really impressing him.
A teammate who owns a 4:10 1500 has 22 high 200 speed. Hard to believe he could beat Lagat in a 200.
Deanouk wrote:
...
Cram was running low 23's in training in the summer of 85, "with a couple of yards rolling start". This makes me think he could have run 23.5-23.7 from blocks in a competition.
I don't believe that either EL G or Lagat had better 400 speed than Cram.
Neither broke 1:46 for 800, although obviously both had to be capable of faster.
I'd say Lagat and EL G would have trouble breaking 24.0 from blocks. but could probably do so with some specific training.
From a rolling start, then I'd say 23 low.
you're saying Cram would beat both those guys over 200m?
Snell had 22.8. Hard to believe that ELG was slower!!!!
Deanouk wrote:
4:10 mile pace for 5000 meters wrote:Just curious as to what the 2 best 1500m guys could run for 200m in their day?
Was it under 23 seconds?
Are you talking rolling start or stationary?
Cram was running low 23's in training in the summer of 85, "with a couple of yards rolling start". This makes me think he could have run 23.5-23.7 from blocks in a competition
😅
Steve Ovett ran 21.7 from the blocks in his career. Hell, Mark Caroll ran 22.5 at 34 from the blocks and you think El G, Lagat and Cram would barely crack 24! Mo Farah ran a rolling 23 second 200m split in a 5000m and his endurance bias is greater than all listed above so are you saying that Mo Farah has similar basic speed as Steve Cram or better, Rudisha better watch out because Mo has the capability to break 1:42 so with his greater endurance and similar basic speed to Cram.
How does this make sense to you given you have given Cram 48.1 to 48.5 400m speed based on his 47.6 relay split in the past. Someone with 23.6 speed running 48.3 in a 400m😅. I tend to believe Cram had high 47/low 48 speed because of that relay split but he'd need a lot more than 23.6 200m speed to do that otherwise he'd have to run at his max for the first 200m and miraculously not develop wooden legs in the last 200m.
Distance runners will usually have a similar or greater level of degradation in performance from 200m to 400m as specialists in those distances because even though they have more aerobic endurance, they lack the specific endurance or physiology that the 400m entails. For instance Steve Ovett vs WvN
Ovett
21.7 -> 47.5
WvN
19.94 -> 43.03
You are putting Cram at a ridiculous
23.6 -> 48.3
when using something similar to Ovett's line, you would get this off 23.6 speed.
23.6 -> 50/51
which is impossible for an athlete who has split 50 relaxed in the first lap of an 800m and ran mid 51's in an even paced 1:42 from a standing start. I don't think Cram had the same speed as Ovett for obvious reasons but a mid to low 22 would be more reasonable and definitely sub 23 for Cram from the blocks. There is no way he is degrading by only a half a second per 200m in a 400m from his 200m all out effort.
Rieti wrote:
Deanouk wrote:Are you talking rolling start or stationary?
Cram was running low 23's in training in the summer of 85, "with a couple of yards rolling start". This makes me think he could have run 23.5-23.7 from blocks in a competition
😅
Steve Ovett ran 21.7 from the blocks in his career. Hell, Mark Caroll ran 22.5 at 34 from the blocks and you think El G, Lagat and Cram would barely crack 24! Mo Farah ran a rolling 23 second 200m split in a 5000m and his endurance bias is greater than all listed above so are you saying that Mo Farah has similar basic speed as Steve Cram or better, Rudisha better watch out because Mo has the capability to break 1:42 so with his greater endurance and similar basic speed to Cram.
How does this make sense to you given you have given Cram 48.1 to 48.5 400m speed based on his 47.6 relay split in the past. Someone with 23.6 speed running 48.3 in a 400m😅. I tend to believe Cram had high 47/low 48 speed because of that relay split but he'd need a lot more than 23.6 200m speed to do that otherwise he'd have to run at his max for the first 200m and miraculously not develop wooden legs in the last 200m.
Distance runners will usually have a similar or greater level of degradation in performance from 200m to 400m as specialists in those distances because even though they have more aerobic endurance, they lack the specific endurance or physiology that the 400m entails. For instance Steve Ovett vs WvN
Ovett
21.7 -> 47.5
WvN
19.94 -> 43.03
You are putting Cram at a ridiculous
23.6 -> 48.3
when using something similar to Ovett's line, you would get this off 23.6 speed.
23.6 -> 50/51
which is impossible for an athlete who has split 50 relaxed in the first lap of an 800m and ran mid 51's in an even paced 1:42 from a standing start. I don't think Cram had the same speed as Ovett for obvious reasons but a mid to low 22 would be more reasonable and definitely sub 23 for Cram from the blocks. There is no way he is degrading by only a half a second per 200m in a 400m from his 200m all out effort.
hey man, you gotta chill. this type of conversation attracts ventolin, and we surely don't want that do we?!
jamin . wrote:
A teammate who owns a 4:10 1500 has 22 high 200 speed. Hard to believe he could beat Lagat in a 200.
Is this a joke or is this serious?
22.5 is my guess.
From blocks doesn't mean much
22.3 w/ running start
odof wrote:
jamin . wrote:A teammate who owns a 4:10 1500 has 22 high 200 speed. Hard to believe he could beat Lagat in a 200.
Is this a joke or is this serious?
Dead serious.
Nice testimony man, but I can't really tell if you are being serious about Mo Farah 800m potential.
I couldn't really say I'd be impressed if he ran under 1:44; not at the same year when he ran that 3:28.8 at least.
To the op: if they practice blocks start before their race, then 22.3 or so.
yyy wrote:
Snell had 22.8. Hard to believe that ELG was slower!!!!
Snell run 1:44.3 on grass! On a modern track that has to be a second quicker.
He ran 47.9 for 440yd relay on cinders.
He would have had superior 400m and 200 speed than either Lagat or El G.
I haven't seen this 22.8 reported 200 speed, but not doubting you. Was it also on cinders? Was it 200m or 220yds? Was it in training or competition?
I could see Snell being capable of 22 low and 47 low on todays tracks.
People have mentioned Ovett's 21.7. This was in a low key meet and with hand timing. More likely 21.9 FAT.
It was also in 1975, when he was 19 and had pbs of 1:46 and 3:43. His 400m pb was another hand timed 47.5 from '74, when he was 18.
Ovett had competed over 200m and 400m as a junior and was one of the best in the country as a teen over 1 lap.
His only other 200m that he is known to have run was a 22.9 in 78, when his 800 and 1500 best times had inproved to 1:44.0 and 3:34.4. The fastest 400m he ran that year was 48.4.
Clearly, by the time Ovett was at his 1500m peak (78-81) his all out basic 200m ability had wained somewhat at the expense of big improvements in his endurance. His turn of speed was still incredible, but he couldn't have still run a 21.7 when in WR 1500m shape IMO.
Where did I say Cram's best for 400m would be 48.1 - 48.5? Not on this thread.
Yes, he was v happy with his 47.6 relay (worth about 48.3) and he ran a 48.1 in practice in 85. I would imagine at the height of his form in mid 85 and 86, running in a competitive race, he'd probably have broken 48. Maybe 47.8.
With that in mind, and on further reflection, I think you're right about my suggestion of his 200m best being 23.5 as being wrong.
I was going on a comment that he and his coach made about him running 23 lows in training (which could possibly be a series rather than a 1 off race) .
If he could run 47.8 for 400m then he would have to have been capable of 22.7 - 23.0 from blocks for 200m. I do recall Cram's coach, Jimmy Headley stating that Steve couldn't run under 23 for 200m like Ovett or Coe could!
I still don't think El G or Lagat would have been as fast as Cram, whose 800 pb is much more impressive than either of theirs. But I need to re-evaluate what they could have run.
In their 1500m peaks, with limited practise using blocks:
Snell & Ovett - 22.3 - 22.5
Cram - 22.9
Lagat - 23.0
El G - 23.1
Cram was the slowest person under 1:43, imo. I would rank Ovett, Coe, El G, Cram, and Lagat in that order, as far as sprinting speed. Ovett and Coe were capable of mid-to-low 46 speed. I would think El G could run 46 mid to high.
dsrunner wrote:
From blocks doesn't mean much
22.3 w/ running start
How does a running start mean more than blocks??? With blocks, you know exactly how they started. There's no way to know how they did a running start. How many steps, what speed did they reach before the start, etc??
From blocks is the most meaningful. Or maybe a standing start. But definitely not a running start.
Cram it wrote:
Cram was the slowest person under 1:43, imo. I would rank Ovett, Coe, El G, Cram, and Lagat in that order, as far as sprinting speed. Ovett and Coe were capable of mid-to-low 46 speed. I would think El G could run 46 mid to high.
Hicham could not break 47.