Is Eliud Kipchoge on the juice?

No.

He chooses to live like a pauper, runs no more than two marathons a year despite the allure of big city pay outs. He runs, rests, carries out communal chores and reads, that is it. Anyone who meets him is struck by the laser sharp focus of the guy.

I'd be living large if I had his talent.

http://olympics.nbcsports.com/2016/03/29/eliud-kipchoge-stephen-kiprotitch-kenya-running-camp-marathon/

Sub Max wrote:

No.

He chooses to live like a pauper, runs no more than two marathons a year despite the allure of big city pay outs. He runs, rests, carries out communal chores and reads, that is it. Anyone who meets him is struck by the laser sharp focus of the guy.

Great, thanks for that :)

At 18 years old.

https://twitter.com/kresearcher/status/767375831555534849

He hasn't failed a test, but here's what we know. An EPO test had been developed in 2001. In 2003, he emerged, winning Jr. XC and WC gold in 5000m. But before 2014, as Canova has said, there were no out of competition blood teats in Kenya. We also know that the EPO urine test has a small detection window (just a few hours), and that many urine samples are not analyzed for EPO (it is a seperate protocol from the stantard screening). We know that the development of the Biopassport has been called a guide for Blood Doping, because it gives more specfic parameters for what will be considered 'okay'. We know that athletes at altitude are less likely to be decided unanimously by the ABP panel for suspicion to open a case. We know that Kenyan and IAAF officials have offered and accepted bribes to cover up doping positives. We know that the current situation in Kenya for OOC tests is advanced warning, as a logistical necessity to bring athletes to a single location for testing.

We know that Kipchoge is incredibly talented. We know he is one of the most committed athletes on the planet. We know he has the hest genetics for distance running, and is immersed in the best culture for training. We know he is one of the all time fasteat performers in 5000m, 10000m and the marathon. We know that he isnfaster than known dopers, (and unknown dopers by inference). We know that doping offers a huge benefit, 3-10% by different analytic tools. (ready to watch the thread explode over that one?). We know the introduction of EPO caused a massive improvement in performances in all populations. We know Kenyans of the highest level have chosen to dope. We know that support staff for Kenyans of the highest level have facilitated doping.

It is up to you to decide if Kipchoge's work ethic and talent is enough to out-do other elite athletes who are doping (its not). It's up to you to decide if an athlete can maintain his performance level without doping (no one can). It's up to you do look beyond the direct evidence, and know that performance level and anti-doping context of the science and NADO are valid evidence to make a conclusion.

He is clean.. Vivian is on the juice 100%. She nearly broke the 10K after giving birth and after she past her prime.

According to Cycling News Doping Forum, 2:10 is the limit of humans, and beyond that it is the Dope Zone.http://forum.cyclingnews.com/viewtopic.php?p=2006133#p2006133

I suspect Ron Hill's 2:10 in the 1970 Boston Marathon is the limit of human endeavour. What he couldn't do is reliably reproduce this outlier performance every time so Frank Shorter (plausibly) won gold in 1972 with 2:12.

Shorter's 2:11 (4 years later) won him silver but was beaten by a doped East German running Hill's outlier time of 2:10. From that moment statistics have become problematic.

Of interest in the latter race is a doped Viren performance (5th in 2:13). It was greeted with astonishment from Hill (commentating in a BBC studio) who believed that Viren couldn't possibly finish the race having completed his second 5k/10k double days before.

Arguably 2:10 down to 2:02 has become this event's dope zone.

Clerk, it's not that I disagree with your reading of the scientific literature but do you mind expanding on why you think the advantages of doping are 7-10% because that's a huge margin: 10% is almost 3 min over 10k. Also, are those numbers for unlimited doping (pre-testing) and therefor likely to be lower in the current improved, although decidedly imperfect, testing environment?

2:10 the limit for clean humans? Paula's clean 2:15 prove that to be nonsense.

Awesome personality. Awesome talent. Plays it all sooo low key, always has. He's been tearing it up for the last 15 years. He's the 4th fastest man ever over 5,000m (Bekele, Komen, Gebreslassie) he hit 12 years ago.

That would only be true if Paula was clean, which she obviously wasn't.

Lol @ tard cyclists.

That's like telling cyclists 30kmph is the limit for natural human cycling. Above that = doping.

3% for doping overall, maybe. 3% for epo alone, no way.

EPO's first big effect was on the 1500 which had gone back above 3:30 for years after the banning of transfusions and introduction of OOC steroid testing. But your Morceli only lowered the WR by about 2 seconds or 1%. Your El Guerrouj added another second but that seemed to me to come from the steroid revival that occurred during his time.

EPO winning marathons makes even less sense. The whole point of EPO is to increase the blood's capacity to transport gases. That's applicable in events that push beyond that capacity, such as middle distance running, or XC skiing and cycling where relative rest periods allow short bursts of intense effort. Nobody ever gets remotely near their maximum gas transport rate in a marathon, no matter how elite. That maximum coincides with low intramuscular pH - in fact it depends on it as that pH increases the rate of gas exchange - and that low pH can't be maintained at a steady state for 2 hours. It's impossible.

The only way EPO makes sense for marathon doping is to counteract training-induced anemia. Some people may take it anyway, thinking it will work, and its effect over shorter distances may give them confidence. But I think the effective doping is a method of weight loss without inducing injury or weakness. Super-skinny people are more athletic than they used to be.

There is no way to know. He has performed at a high level throughout a period of time that has seen great leaps in testing. Considering that, his work ethic, his talent, his lack of pursuit of big paychecks, I think he's clean.

I believe there are genetic freaks of nature who can cleanly out perform the dopers. The '90s were clearly doped because the sheer number of fast times. Statistically you expect a few outliers. To see dozens is not a good sign.

Today we have Kipchoge as the outlier. He is head and shoulders above the rest. I think Rupp is most likely clean. Rupp is nowhere near the most talented athlete. It is conceivable to me that a few outliers will own him every single time.

El Keniano wrote:

Clerk wrote:

We know Kenyans of the highest level have chosen to dope. We know that support staff for Kenyans of the highest level have facilitated doping.

Examples? Else please do humanity a favour by killing yourself.

How about recently for example?

John Anzrah taking bribes for advanced notice for drug tests.

A training center in Iten being caught on camera with EPO.

Agent Frederico Rosa being charged with supplying his athletes with EPO.

Doctors caught on camera offering EPO injections for $100.

Etc

you walked into this one wrote:

There is no way to know.

These are words to live by. They should be the motto of these boards.

As the psychologist Danny Kahneman says:

"A puzzling limitation of our minds is our excessive confidence in what we believe we know, and our apparent inability to acknowledge the full extent of our ignorance and the uncertainty of the world we live in. We are prone to overestimate how much we understand about the world..."

El Keniano wrote:

Clerk wrote:

We know Kenyans of the highest level have chosen to dope. We know that support staff for Kenyans of the highest level have facilitated doping.

Examples? Else please do humanity a favour by killing yourself.

You can spend your life thinking that death threats are part of normal conversation, but others will draw away, until you are left with no one else except angry, bitter comrades who refuse to be part of civil society. I'm not sure why you want to make that choice to live such a hateful life, but it is your choice.

Kenyans of the highest level who have chosen to dope:

Rita Jeptoo (2:18:57 marathon)

Matthew Kisorio (58:46 Half Marathon)

Emily Chebet (2-time World Cross Country Champion)

Elizabeth Muthoka (400m Former National Champion)

Joyce Zachary (400m Kenyan Record Holder, World Championships qualifier)

Koki Manunga (400m Hurdles, World Championships qualifier)

Wilson Loyanae Ekupe (2:05:37 marathon

Delilah Asiago (Positive in 1999, 2006 Dubai Marathon Champ)

Julia Mumbi Muraga (2:28:00 Marathon (based in Japan!))

And we can include Kenyan ex-patriots:

Musa Amer Obaid/Moses Kipkirui (Qatar, 8:07.18 steeple)

Abraham Kiprotich (France, 2:08:33)

Support staff for Kenyans of the highest level who have facilitated doping:

Federico Rosa (arrested for doping athletes)

Claudio Berardelli (arrested for doping athletes)

Major Michael Rotich (offered bribes to notify surprise testing)

John Anzrah (coach who took athlete's test

Isaac Mwangi (accused of extorting a bribe to reduce bans)

(Paul Simbolei has accused unnamed officials of accepting bribes, not connected to above case) (Which is indpendant of the bribery case involving Isaiah Kiplagat, David Okeyo, Joseph Kinyua)

So, anything wrong with my previous statement: We know Kenyans of the highest level have chosen to dope. "We know that support staff for Kenyans of the highest level have facilitated doping."?

Are the splits per mile of the marathon posted somewhere?

What pace did he run the last 8 miles?

You do realise that there have been many thousands of serious Kenyan runners over the last few decades? We all know that there is corruption and cheating in Kenya.

Let's repeat the line above a hundred times.

There is not only no way to know. There is no way to know. There is...