You have the wrong CR in the Brazier story! It's not Ryun's.

Check the Board Bob wrote:

The collegiate "record" in the men's 800 is 1:44.55 by Juluis Achon of George Mason in 1996.

And Earl Jones ran 1:43.74 as a collegian in the summer of 1984, so Teddy can make a note.

No, Ryun holds the record.

Are these not the records?

https://www.trackandfieldnews.com/index.php/records/30-records/276-mens-outdoor-collegiate-records

What shenanigans are going on here from letsrun.....?

Jim ran 1:44.9 for 880y and broke Peter Snell's 1:45.1 880y record. Snell ran 1:44.3 for 800m en route to that 1:45.1 880y. So Jim ran at least 1:44.3 for 800m en route to his 1:44.9 880y, and possibly faster. And marks after the collegiate season aren't counted as collegiate records. I wouldn't be surprised to see someone break the record tomorrow though.

The NCAA (as such) does not maintain "collegiate records" only records for the NCAA championship meet. That opens the door for a good deal of difference of opinion on what constitutes a "collegiate record."

Joaquim Cruz, Earl Jones, Jim Ryun and Julius Achon can all be plausibly defended as "the" 800m collegiate record holder, depending on the rules applied.

smile wrote:

And marks after the collegiate season aren't counted as collegiate records.

By certain entities. One such entity (Track and Field News) does not consider Ryun's time as the record because there was no official split at 800m for his mark and conversions (in T&FN's view of things) are ineligible for records.

Track and Field news USED to count times up to August 31st including after the Athletes Senior Year, then they made it only during the NCAA season.

And I'll add that USATF officially considers Ryun's 800m American Junior Record to be 1:44.9, with no credit given for conversion.

something tells me wrote:

And I'll add that USATF officially considers Ryun's 800m American Junior Record to be 1:44.9, with no credit given for conversion.

Only out of pure ignorance.

USelessATF wrote:

something tells me wrote:

And I'll add that USATF officially considers Ryun's 800m American Junior Record to be 1:44.9, with no credit given for conversion.

Only out of pure ignorance.

If you want to be accurate, like records tend to be, this is the only way to do it.

There was no actual 800m split so we have NO IDEA what Jim Ryun went through 800m in. Estimates are pure speculation. He could have been slowing down or speeding up over the final ~5 meters.

The only time officially recorded is 1:44.9 and so there is only one true statement: Jim Ryun must have covered 800m in no slower than 1:44.9.

I wonder what the NCAA considers the record. If they even keep records themselves. What is the championship record, as in the fastest time run at the champs?

The other complicating factor is that it was during Ryun's freshman year, and this was back when freshmen were not eligible. Would you count a record set during a redshirt year? If you say no, then it calls into question whether this should be the collegiate record.

Personally, I wouldn't keep any records outside of the championship records. The best performances achieved in the championships themselves.

Performances that may have been achieved by the many professional athletes that have attended an American university, run at non-university events, in and around the season in European meets and the like seem of little value to me. An interesting note I guess, but not really important.

Cruz ran 1:44.27 whilst at Oregon and also 1:43.0 I believe in the July after winning his NCAA title in 1984. So when do you make the cutoff? Seems silly to me.

Metric Miler wrote:

The only time officially recorded is 1:44.9 and so there is only one true statement: Jim Ryun must have covered 800m in no slower than 1:44.9.

You statement is an impossibility. It violates the laws of physics. Going from 800m to 880y in zero time faster than the speed of light. Not possible. Ergo, Ryun ran faster than 1:44.9 to pass the 800m mark.

800m = 874.891y

874.891y = .99419 x 880y

.99419 x 1:44.9 = 1:44.3 (1:44.29 rounded up)

It is really very simple maths.

Metric Miler wrote:

Personally, I wouldn't keep any records outside of the championship records. The best performances achieved in the championships themselves.

Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah

What's funny is no one cares what you think, ever.

something tells me wrote:

And I'll add that USATF officially considers Ryun's 800m American Junior Record to be 1:44.9, with no credit given for conversion.

The USTFCCCA (college coaches' association) lists Ryun as the in-season CR holder at 1:44.3 on a converted basis.

USTFCCCCCCCA wrote:

something tells me wrote:

And I'll add that USATF officially considers Ryun's 800m American Junior Record to be 1:44.9, with no credit given for conversion.

The USTFCCCA (college coaches' association) lists Ryun as the in-season CR holder at 1:44.3 on a converted basis.

http://www.ustfccca.org/assets/record-book/collegiate-outdoor-records.pdf

I'm aware of that. I listed Ryun as one of four people who could plausibly be defended as "the" record holder, depending upon rules chosen.

I do wonder, however, whether someone at USTFCCCA used T&FN's all-time "in season" 800m list (which has Ryun's converted time at the top) without knowing that T&FN itself does not consider that time eligible for designation as the collegiate record.

something tells me wrote:

USTFCCCCCCCA wrote:

The USTFCCCA (college coaches' association) lists Ryun as the in-season CR holder at 1:44.3 on a converted basis.

http://www.ustfccca.org/assets/record-book/collegiate-outdoor-records.pdf

I'm aware of that. I listed Ryun as one of four people who could plausibly be defended as "the" record holder, depending upon rules chosen.

I do wonder, however, whether someone at USTFCCCA used T&FN's all-time "in season" 800m list (which has Ryun's converted time at the top) without knowing that T&FN itself does not consider that time eligible for designation as the collegiate record.

Until a collegian runs 1:44.3 or better they cannot claim they are the 800m record holder without being laughed at by knowledgeable runners. I don't think a collegian who runs 1:44.5 would claim they were the true record holder.

That is just the Track & Field New interpretation of "collegiate record." They are not a governing body, athletic association or any kind of track organization. They are just a magazine run by old white male track enthusiasts.

Les wrote:

That is just the Track & Field New interpretation of "collegiate record." They are not a governing body, athletic association or any kind of track organization. They are just a magazine run by old white male track enthusiasts.

They're as legitimate as any other record keepers.

Conversions do not count as records, only times taken en route. Since that didn't happen with Ryun he can't be credited with the 800 record.