Cruz's 800m training ? coached by Luiz De Oliveira

crikey Hadd, very impressed - sounds pretty accurate to me.

Just adding that the longest run Cruz ever did was 12 miles, but only because he finished his normal 10 miles, saw his girlfriend, and got fired up for another 2 miles! But usually he ran 10 miles max, but always at sub 60 minute pace bare minimum. Usually he ran somewhere between 56 and 58 minutes. He also always advocated fast running. He said (and I know because I heard him say this) he "wouldnt get out of bed for 5 miles at over 6 minute pace" - and thats just his morning run. When you think that basically all his running was done at this speed or under - thats pretty impressive.

One interesting point about his training. He also said that he always trained to his max on every session. He said that most times, he would push it so hard, that he couldnt finish the session, and this was what was required to become Olympic Champion. While loathed to disagree with a 1min41 runner, and Olympic Champ, its worth noting that Cruz ran his best times at 21 years old, and also won the Olympics at age 21, and his career basically ended at 25. He admitted he had 6 operations on his achilles as well. So you have to wonder, that had Cruz perhaps built up his training over his career, he could have stayed injury free, and god knows how fast he could have run. In this regard, I think that de Olivieras training system is close to perfect for an 800m runner. The circuit training is very radical, but when you break it down, appears to be perfectly suited for 800m. The speed of running, and the quality also seem right. Sometimes we forget that an 800m is a race that is over in less than 1min45secs - will 100 miles a week at slow pace really prepare you for this? Cruz proved that there are other, and better ways. He is arguably the greatest 800m runner ever. One of only 3 to run sub 1min42 - but of those, the only one to have won the Olympic 800m title, and like Kipketer - but not like Coe - was unbeatable in his time.

It should also be noted that at the same time de Olivera was also coaching Ocky Clark ( former american record holder indoor 1000m and I think 800m) Ran a number of sub 1:46's Also Sue Addison(4th and 5th at us Oly Trials 84-88) One of the US's fastest milers at the time. Sue Addison coached using de Olivera's methods at University of Colorado and Florida State. CU's 4 x800 did very well indoors Mike Macinko ran 1:46 and 3:41 . At FSU the 4X 800 women did well at Indoor nats and a 1:56 800m guy Rob Circelli ran a 1:47.6 ( he held the Notre Dame track record for indoor 800m 1:48). Its a very quality over quantity program during the competitive season. Its about time people recognized Coach De Olivera's methods again.

To ad to the also note curciom, in 1985 de Olivera coached Mary Slaney, which was the year she broke the American Records in the mile and 3,000 and was unbeatable in Europe besting the Olympic Champion Puica of Romania several times. He also coached Claudette Gronendal during that time, which was when she won the 1985 & 1986 U.S. Champs in the 800 and ran 1:58 several times. Also, one reason Cruz had so many achilles problems was due to the length differences in his legs. The difference was so big, he ran with one shoe with a midsole on it a couple of inches thicker than his other shoe.

Unless Coach Cruz's leg has grown substantially in the last several years, that's a bit of an exagerration. He does have orthotics, but we're talking fractions of an inch difference in leg length. P.S. He can still roll it out pretty good. I saw him win an all-comers mile two summers ago in sub 4:20 and he looked like he could have run a lot faster if he'd needed to for the win.

yeah - the inches are a bit on a exaggeration. When I saw him, he had custom made Nikes, with the outsole rubber about 1cm thicker to compensate for the difference. But this is still quite considerable, dont discount that at all!

Sure that could have contributed to the injuries, but I think he would have adapted to that over the years anyway. I still think that when you slam EVERY session to your max, and dont finish many of them, then you are asking for trouble with injuries. Lets just wonder at what Cruz could have done without those injuries, with back to back years of uninterupted progress. I honestly think we can wonder about sub 1min41. But thats all it is. Lets get back to anymore info on Cruz, and de Olivieras methods.

I'd say that the high quality in addition to the low volume is the important mark in Cruz's training.

A 1:41 800m runner that can't break 3:50 in the mile?

People will say he was an 800m runner who ran the mile, but I'm sorry, that's a lack of development to me and leads me to believe he lacked development at 800m as well.

yes, but Cruz was a pure 400/800m type runner. He had 48 second speed over 400 when he was 14! And has PRs of 10.6, 21.7, 46.0 - so he is FAST. He still ran 3min34, and, as alluded too, was horribly injured later in his career - when a serious step up to 1500m would have more than likely occured. Anyway, what are you basing this "lack of development on?" Seb Coe? - because he is the only runner out of histories seriously fast 800m runners that has any record over 1500/mile. In fact, of the rest, Cruz is probably the best. Kipketer has no history over 1500/mile - in fact his stated PR over 1500m is 3min40 (though obviously is capable of faster), but Sammy Kosgei, Wilfred Bungei, Yuriy Borzakovskiy, Andre Bucher, Hezekial Sepeng, do not have PR's close to sub 3min50 for the mile - in fact they are not even close to Cruz.

Give Cruz a break, sometimes you cant have it all. There are many different type 800m runners. To suggest that Cruz was underdeveloped is unfair. So he trains more miles - he loses the edge off the raw speed, and vice versa. Think of how superb an athlete Kipketer is. And then think that if Cruz was a 3min47/48 miler - he could possibly have been a second to a second and a half faster over 800??? - thats a big call.

And by the way, saying an Olympic champion lacked development, is a pretty wank call.

super intense low mileage training may work for 800m/1500m but not beyond.Coe's best for 3k was 7:54, Ovett ran 7:41/13:20/28:18.Some may argue that Coe had no real interest to race longer distances but i'm sure that he ran these 3k indoor races @ maximum effort.

I read yesterday on RWD that Krumm said he's doing endurance work now, and not to expect anything really fast indoors. Does anyone know what kind of "endurance" work he's doing? Or what De Oliveira considers endurance work?

macpac wrote:

super intense low mileage training may work for 800m/1500m but not beyond.Coe's best for 3k was 7:54, Ovett ran 7:41/13:20/28:18.Some may argue that Coe had no real interest to race longer distances but i'm sure that he ran these 3k indoor races @ maximum effort.

I always wondered about that. Those who say that Coe could have run a mean 5000 don't consider that he couldn't even run 13:08 pace for 3/5 the distance(WR was 13:00). Indoors may be "off-season", but a 3:45 miler in base training, who "was always in contact with his speed" should bbe plenty able to go sub-7:50 anywhere, anytime. Definitely he fell off in endurance after four laps.

de Oliveira gave a clinic at a hotel in Boston last Friday night. He was/is in Boston for the meet coming up this weekend.

I'm afraid I wasn't there myself, but my coach was. He said there were less than 10 people who showed. Sad, esp. when you consider the number of college programs in the area, PLUS the number of teams that had come in for the terrier meet at BU. Maybe it just wasn't publicized enough.

My coach showed me a few of the many handouts Oliveira gave out. He has tweaked his training somewhat over the years, but early season drills (sometimes done on a hill) along with a lot of speed remain core principles. Some of the track workouts involve changing pace drastically within each repeat--e.g. fast, then real slow, then a bit faster, then faster still, all within a single 800. The training plans I saw were exhaustively thorough. It was a real eye-opener. If you wanted to know more about what type of training Krummenacker has been doing, this clinic was definitely the place to be.

I can't emphasize enough how crazy it is that he gave a clinic and so few people showed. For shame, beantown-area coaches. He gave away the store.

Can you possibly give any more information on Oliveira's methods?

I saw Coe run 7:54 at RAF Coshford in 86/87, he was out for a jog. He sat behind Dilly Dee (an ok club runner) then blasted him in the last lap. His 3k times are no reflection of what his potential at the longer distances might have been.

If he ran more volume why would lose a step of speed?

As long as he maintained one or two workouts a week focusing on goal 400m pace his speed will be just as good.

Furthermore, if you recall the Peter Snell article from Runnersworld, long distance training/runs recruit fast twitch fibers and train them to have a higher endurance capacity than normal.

His speed would have been as good or better, and his times at all distances would have been improved.

trackhead wrote:

If he ran more volume why would lose a step of speed?

As long as he maintained one or two workouts a week focusing on goal 400m pace his speed will be just as good.

Furthermore, if you recall the Peter Snell article from Runnersworld, long distance training/runs recruit fast twitch fibers and train them to have a higher endurance capacity than normal.

His speed would have been as good or better, and his times at all distances would have been improved.

that just makes no sense at all. In fact, you are going against what you are saying in separate paragraphs. Your reference to Snell is irrelevant. In the first paragraph you say that there is no reason why he would lose speed if he ran more mileage. Then in the paragraph regarding Snell, you then say that these fast twitch fibres are now being recruited to become more endurance based. What do you think happens when fast twitch fibres are "recruited" to become endurance (or slow twitch) fibres??? The potential and function of those fibres change. Oh yeah, and since you obviously are of similar level to Cruz, you will be able to attest how simple it is to do speed training at sub 11 100m, sub 23 200m pace, along with running 100 miles a week.

Have you ever gone out for a 20 mile run (aka Snell) and then tried to do speed training at these speeds Cruz was capable of the morning after??? Why the hell do you think Snell could only just barely break 23 for 200, and could run only just under 49 for a 400m in a relay?

What this REALLY shows, is just how knaive you are regarding just what it takes to be a world class runner, and even less about physiology. If you think he speed would have been just as good if not better, if he pounded the roads for 100 miles a week, you are just stupid. If not, then why dont sprinters run 100 miles a week??? - hell, every sprinter decelerates dont they??? - get them running the miles - and do a few maintenance sprints a week, that will see them not decelerate. Anyway, next time you see Cruz, you should tell him your theories. Im sure an Olympic champion will have time for some idiot off the street telling him how he should have trained.

Any chance you could copy some of that stuff and bring it to the Boston Indoor's with you? I, for one, had no idea that the clinic was taking place.

First, I don't appreciate being called an idiot. I wouldn't do so to you and I don't expect it.

Second, the long endurance runs create the demand for the fast twitch fibers -- when in conjunction with a program that is working on 400m speed development.

Third, fast twitch fibers are also trained to have a higher endurance capacity than normal. I don't have much speed, but eventually I will beat others that have more.

Fourth, in reference to your comments regarding sprinters, I'd like to refere you to the David Krummenacker thread.

Finally, I have no problem taking this up with Joaquim Cruz. I know what he'll tell me and I know what I'll tell him. A good friend of mine was working out at the UCSD track a few weeks ago and was telling Cruz about his training and Cruz flatly told him that he was running to much. I know what he'll say, and I know what I'll say.

Take it easy.

The coaches clinic was publicized to every coach of every university and college attending the BU meet and also to almost all New England coaches and even running clubs. I did some of this persoally. Many people could not make travel arrangements and thus left after the BU meet and did not attend.

My team was at the BU terrier meet and I NEVER recieved any such notification. I would have completely changed my travel plans to listen to Luis again. He's one of the few who are not afraid to "think outside the box".

Does anyone who has these handouts have the ability to provide them to runners/coaches who would like to peruse them.