Makhloufi destroying workouts

Regardless of the science it really is a ridiculous argument to say 'PEDs don't affect elite athletes so it doesn't matter' in response to allegations of widespread doping and poor testing in Kenya.

What about the would-be-sub-elites that are cheating with EPO and running elite times on the roads, stealing prize money? What about all the other PEDs proven beyond doubt to improve performance (EPO is one of them btw but I digress) that could be and are alleged to be used by athletes across Kenya elites included?

No drug testing means just that. Free reign to abuse any PED and gain an unfair advantage over other athletes.

I feel like Renato's argument here is that the Kenyans are all so much better than everyone else that it doesn't matter if they dope they would win anyway. I find that repulsive.

Deanouk wrote:

Great analysis and reasoning.

Hilarious!! It was anything but. It was cherry-picking, it was old arguments refuted many times over, and it was a serious case of correlation doesn't equal causation. Give me a break!

So let me ask the "great analyst and reasoner", Mr "recordbook", this:

why has the marathon plummeted so much during the supposed time of new epo testing and new blood profiling?? Did that little factoid escape your analysis (I am sure you will have a brilliant answer) . If he is wondering how today's athletes are beating yesterday's athletes, than I suppose every single athlete faster than the alcoholic, overweight Henry Rono (no disrespect to a great man and incredible talent, but facts are facts, he barely scratched the surface of ultimate ability) was doping. Ritz? Jager? Solinsky? Teg? Rupp? Kennedy? Mark Carrol? Ben True? About 1000 E. Africans at varying distances. ALLLLLLLLLLLLL of them were doping huh, because, what?.....Henry Rono represents the pinnacle of human potential at distance running, is that it?

C'mon, nonsense.

Before the WR's plummeted there was a smattering of E. Africans running seriously on the circuit. Starting in late 80's/early 90's, once prize $ got bigger, and once Kenya and Ethiopia, as nations, began to really take the sport seriously, THEN there was the influx of real running talent en masse. That changed everything.

So answer me Mr Recordbook and those that agree with you: do you think that ALL THOSE AMERICAN or EURO runners faster than Pre or say Dave Bedford are dopers??? well?? How is it possible for them to have so easily and totally eclipsed the times of those great, passionate, talented runners? What has changed in training/nutrition, etc? I'd love to hear your honest answer. Either you are consistent and think that all current top US/EURO runners are dopers, or.....you are being extremely inconsistent and contradictory.

Metric Miler wrote:

I feel like Renato's argument here is that the Kenyans are all so much better than everyone else that it doesn't matter if they dope they would win anyway. I find that repulsive.

A) that's not his argument at all. He has said, ad nauseam, that he thinks that the positive effect of EPO on extremely highly trained, super elite runners from/training at altitude would would not exist (or something close to that)

B) I find your lack of reading comprehension and desire to put words not spoken into the mouths of others repulsive.

1. Do I think rono or barrios or auoita were the absolute peak of human potential? No, but they were probably pretty damn close. Said auoita in particular was as trained/ supported/ motivated/ and talented as the runners of the next generation. (He was probably also doping to some degree imo as demonstrated by later drug pushing allegations.) Nevertheless the difference between a 12:58 and a 12:39 is 2%. That is such a big jump that something significant has to explain it. It wasn't the track, it wasn't the genetics, it wasn't the shoes, and so far no one has actually described any specific differences in training.

2. I don't pretend to have all the answers, particularly in the marathon. With that said, it is easier to improve an airplane than a pen. The marathon is a lot more like an airplane than a pen so it's not shocking that the marathon has seen improvements as big money, pacers, and track talent have definitely moved up to the distance. (The wr has not dropped or been approached on the woman's side since 2003).

Also, the marathon is long enough that aerobic limits are not all defining as true endurance and fat conversion ability becomes essential after 90 minutes. It is conceivable that blood doping, or at least heavy blood doping , is not necessary for sub 2:05 times. It is also possible that some sort of stimulant like meldonium or a thyroid med Is allowing runners to push back the bodies regulators.

3. If you're asking me, yes I actually do think majority, if not all of sub 3:48 / 13 flat/ 27 flat runners, regardless of race, have used some sort of blood doping/ steroid/ stimulant to get that fast. That might make me a tinfoil hat nut but I just don't think those sort of times are possible or sustainable without assistance. Personally, I don't have the slightest problem with it. I do have a problem with so called genius coaches who claim doping doesn't work for an ever shifting tribe of talented mystery people.

4. You are not answering my question. Why are Mo Farah, Ndiku and all the rest half a straightaway behind the best of the 90s on the track? I don't buy the talent has all moved to the marathon for the money argument in terms of the regression in 5k/ 10k times. Monaco, Rome and Rieti would pay blood money for a 12:35 5k. Those runners simply aren't out there right now. Why?

My first post was a logical rather than a biological argument. It is unprecedented in modern times for current world class distance runners to trail behind the previous generation by 1-2 percent. But that is exactly what has happened from 2010 through today from 3k-10k. That sort of anomaly deserves an explanation. Maybe the emergence and subsequent regulation of EPO isn't the explanation. But I have not seen a better more plausible argument yet.

Why, then, has the marathon WR kept improving?

"Rjm33, I don't know if you don't understand my English, or if you want to use what I say without using your brain."

While it's true that your English is far from perfect, you actually use this, consciously as well as passively, to your advantage in these arguments. Someone spewing pure sophistry can, after all, more convincingly obfuscate, change the subject, indulge in sleight-of-keyboard, etc. because such a person's words are sufficiently jumbled to conceal the fact that his point is without sense or substance.

In plain English, you are full of shit.

Whenever someone brings up scientific data, you bob and weave and insist that not every individual in a pool of study subjects is the same (wow, really?) and that their responses to experimental protocols differ within limits (who knew?) and that a mathematical average is just that, as not everyone is average (boom goes the dynamite!). But you use this boilerplate biostats-101 crap as a springboard to make utterly absurd and unsupported claims, none of which really need to be revisited here.

The fact that not everyone responds the same to a given PED is not tantamount to some people being plain nonresponders to that PED. If there were either data to support this idea or a good reason to deem it a solid hypothesis, than such shit might belong in a conversation among rational, objective-minded people. But in fact, the only reason to propose such an idea is to present the impression that Kenyans at the top have no incentive to dope. If they wouldn't benefit from doping, as your blather would have folks beieve, then there would be no reason for them to dope, and without good reason, why, they sure wouldn't risk their careers and their livelihood!

Except that we know they do. We have seen scads of Kenyans test positive, just as athletes in other countries have. Big-name Kenyans testing positive is not a new thing. Jeptoo was a Moby Dick, but runners like Delilah Asiago are no minnows. Remember her? She set world records 21 years ago at 4 miles and 12 kilometers. In 1999 she flunked a doping-control test. Just another deluded East African yutz thinking she would be faster on drugs, right?

You continue to fool a fair number of people because of the simple "I was there" factor. Because you are intimate with a lot of the best runners in the world, people see you as a star of sorts and naturally associate your estimable knowledge with estimable integrity whether they know they're doing it or not. By that standard, if the deeply unlikable coach of the New England Patriots says Rob Gronkowski doesn't juice and that Deflategate was bullshit, why, he must be telling the truth, because he was there! Never mind that he has a lot of reason to lie his ass off; he knows more football than his detractors, so their complaints are nothing but noise.

Sometimes you almost seem to even believe what you say yourself, even though your claims, if true would thorough revolutionize exercise physiology. Maybe you even do at this point. Either way, this also helps you seem more convincing to the masses.

You're also in a bit of a crappy position in that if you know top Kenyans who are doping, you have every reason to vociferously deny it, and if you actually don't personally know of any doping among high-profile runners who have yet to be caught (hey, like you yourself say when it suits you, "anything is possible") then you also have every reason to issue adamant denials. The upshot is that no one can draw any real conclusions from your passion alone, and these endless arguments can continue, with your adversaries making unassailable points and you engaging in discursive rope-a-dope tactics so as to not engage these points meaningfully.

Do you ever argue this way in forums where people know better than to take you seriously, by the way? Because that would be entertaining as hell to see.

Best post I've seen on here for a while...

Tyrone ReXXXing wrote:

Metric Miler wrote:

I feel like Renato's argument here is that the Kenyans are all so much better than everyone else that it doesn't matter if they dope they would win anyway. I find that repulsive.

A) that's not his argument at all. He has said, ad nauseam, that he thinks that the positive effect of EPO on extremely highly trained, super elite runners from/training at altitude would would not exist (or something close to that)

B) I find your lack of reading comprehension and desire to put words not spoken into the mouths of others repulsive.

Renato has gone on and on about his theory that EPO doesn't affect Kenyans. He has gone on and on about how the Kenyans are intrinsically 'so very much more talented/better' than European and American runners. He has said that athletes like Kisorio who looked on track to break the HM record before getting busted for EPO and steroids, didn't need the drugs and were simply misguided and would have cleanly run those times which are unattainable by European runners.

Kisorio himself stated that running felt so much easier when he was on the dope by the way.

Do you not see the implication here that he believes the Kenyans to be so superior that PEDs do not work on them and therefore it doesn't matter if they dope because there is no 'advantage' as he said?

'Personally, I believe also Makhloufi is clean. He was in Iten 3 and 4 years ago, I saw him working, I spoke with hime several times, and in my opinion he is clean. However, maybe I can be wrong, but this is my DIRECT feeling knowing him.'

Well he must be clean if he seems nice!

Speaking with someone several times is not knowing them and even if he was your best friend you might never know.

There was little blood testing in Kenya until recently, so their anti-doping is not at the same level as some other more developed countries. Also if there is no problem why ara they having a problem with WADA for non compiance in doping?

ukathleticscoach wrote:

'Personally, I believe also Makhloufi is clean. He was in Iten 3 and 4 years ago, I saw him working, I spoke with hime several times, and in my opinion he is clean. However, maybe I can be wrong, but this is my DIRECT feeling knowing him.'

Well he must be clean if he seems nice!

Speaking with someone several times is not knowing them and even if he was your best friend you might never know.

There was little blood testing in Kenya until recently, so their anti-doping is not at the same level as some other more developed countries. Also if there is no problem why ara they having a problem with WADA for non compiance in doping?

There was NO blood testing in Kenya until like 2013. In 2012 only urine tests were done

No. I never said EPO doesn't affect Kenyans. I said EPO DOESN'T AFFECT KENYAN AND ETHIOPIAN RUNNERS WHO HAVE TOP TALENT, TRAIN ALWAYS IN ALTITUDE AND USE VERY TOUGH AND PROPER TRAINING.

This is the category, it's not so difficult to understand.

Why this selected category ? Because the widespread opinion is that "all the WR ar from doped athletes", something I strongly deny.

So, WHICH IS THE CATEGORY OF SUBJECTS WE HAVE TO STUDY FOR DEMONSTRATING THIS IDEA IS WRONG ?

The category MUST be made with subjects who are very close the best level.

Every investigation including different categories (such as generic KENYANS, or generic RUNNERS, or generic ELITE very far from the real Elite) can't bring any new info, if we want to have reference with the bests.

The other category MUST be the investigation on training, but the REAL training of the best athletes.

Every investigation NOT INCLUDING this factor (such as generic "WELL TRAINED", from researchers not having any idea about the real training of the Champions) doesn't produce any scientific conclusion, since what I say is valid for a well identified category : TOP ATHLETES (if the general feeling is that for unning the WR they must use doping, the category is circumscribed to no more than the best 50 all time), BORN, LIVING and TRAINING in altitude (so, with the esclusion of Maroccan, European, American), WITH PROPER TOUGH TRAINING (so, not "Well trained" or using as subjects boys coming from the forest).

This is what I say, I don't think difficult to understand.

So, stop writing that "Renato has gone on and on about his theory that EPO doesn't affect Kenyans", since this is not true.

I NEVER said "Kisorio who looked on track to break the HM record before getting busted for EPO and steroids, didn't need the drugs and were simply misguided and would have cleanly run those times which are unattainable by European runners".

Instead, I explained HE RAN HIS BEST TIMES BEFORE USING DOPING, I SAID HE WAS CAUGHT AFTER HIS WORSE COMPETITION EVER (and this is a fact, not an opinion), AND I SAID HE ASKED FOR DOPING AFTER STRUGGLING IN THE LAST 5 KM OF THE BOSTON MARATHON 2012.

All the other things are fruit of your imagination.

And I NEVER said the Kenyans are intrinsically 'so very much more talented/better' than European and American runners. I said ALL TALENTED KENYAN AND ETHIOPIAN YOUNG PEOPLE TRY TO RUN BECAUSE GOOD RESULTS CAN CHANGE THEIR LIFE, and I SAID THERE ARE A LOT OF TALENTED ATHLETES IN EUROPE AND AMERICA WHO CAN RUN FAST LIKE KENYAN BUT ARE NOT INTERESTED IN RUNNING, AND IN THE MOST PART OF CASES IN ANY OTHER SPORT.

So, you can agree or not with what I say. But be honest, and don't put in my mouth words I never said, that are only in your mind.

Sorry, this is not exact. Already in 2010 I had some my athlete (Wilson Kiprop WHM Champion, Florence Kiplagat WCC and WHM Champion, Silas Kiplagat, Moses Mosop, Edwin Soi) and I know athletes from other coaches (David Rudisha, Mary Keitany, Ezekiel Kemboi, Asbel Kiprop) who had two times in the season blood tests, carried out by a pool coming from South Africa.

I don't know if they tested Kenyan only or also some of the best runners in Kenya for training belonging to other Countries (such as Mo Farah or Makhloufi), but the fact there were no blood test is not true (also if were not many).

About the problem with WADA for non compiance in doping (that really doesn't concern the doping, but the lack of a domestic antidoping system really working), nobody says everything is ok. However, you must understand that this is the way used for putting pressure to the Kenyan Government in order to give a higher contribution of money, for making more tests possible. WADA is not really worry about the level of Kenyan doping : there are thousands runners around the World, and the percentage of athletes positive, compared with the number of athletes tested in competition, is not higher than in many other Countries. WADA simply can't accept that one of the most important athletic Countries in the World doesn't have a working system, because this fact can create suspicions about every kind of performance, and this drives away people from the sport.

But WADA tries to have respect for its rules, in spite of the REAL importance of the local antidoping system, so this is also a FORMAL problem : if the reason is substantial only, how can we justify the fact WADA put in the list of "not correct Countries" the small state of Andorra, where there are 6 athletes and the best is a girl HJ with 1.75 ?

OK I will revise. Renato goes on and on about how drugs don't affect elite Kenyans. Happy? Because it's still bullshit. EPO specifically has been proven to affect Kenyans born and living at altitude the same way it affects sea level people. And EPO has been proven to affect the most elite cyclists whom have RBCs and haemoglobin levels through the roof. But they don't affect the combination of elite and Kenyan, OK.You never said

And the most part of Kenyan athletes are, by far, very much better than the idiots who continue to lie for not accepting a very simple truth : THE TOP AFRICAN ATHLETES BORN, LIVING AND TRAINING IN ALTITUDE ARE BY FAR VERY MUCH BETTER THAN THE BEST EUROPEAN AND AMERICAN RUNNERS

ok.

You have no evidence that Kisorio's best runs were not due to taking PEDs. In fact, there are some very strong indications they were due to PEDs, being that he was caught using steroids and then admitted that he has also used EPO before and that EPO use is rife amongst training camps he visited. The fact that you defend a proven doper is quite worrying.

Once again this issue is not just about EPO. There are many other drugs also, unless elite Kenyans are immune to steroids etc also?

You ignored the fact that poor anti-doping controls leave athletes open to use any and all PEDs. You cannot tell anyone that the elite Kenyan athletes are all clean because firstly you do not know and secondly athletes have told of widespread doping abuses (plus the numerous other investigations by journalists from different countries including Kenyan journalists, the WADA findings, the IAAF investigation, the corruption related suspensions of anti-doping officials, the suspension of Athletics Kenya's president, the numerous positives including some elites recently at the World Champs etc.)

Hey Renato,

You have explained your ideas and your position on this subject in depth - Some people will agree with you, some will not agree with you - I don't think there is any point in further arguing with the people who are now engaging with. You will never change their opinions because they are set in stone.

So, why not close this chapter and return to talking about training methodology and sharing your stories from your athletes which is a great resource for us in the Letsrun community.

If someone wants to say all Kenyan's dope or even most Kenyans or even some Kenyans - then let them say it. You won't change their minds arguing with them and this will go on indefinitely.

So maybe it is best to just accept that these people exist and move your energy back to talking about running/training methodology etc!

Those were the good old days where we could talk to you about training situations and ideas!

Your information is a great resource on this message board and I don't think I would be the only one who was grateful to see you talking about training again rather than this depressing subject of drugs.

Thanks for your time and sharing your insights into the elite side of the sport.

In the history of methodology we can see several eras , characterized by differences in the training philosophy and in the choice of the most important workouts for that period. In some of these periods, there was also some history of doping, since always the athletes tried to find some pharmac able to help the body to become stronger, faster, and more resistant.

Also if the modern methodology is based on more scientific data and ideas, in some case what was the “basic and natural training” still can be considered the “main dish” of the preparation.

We can’t say, for example, that the modern training methodology for 400m changed the history of the event, when 56 years ago, during the OG in Rome, running on a dirty track, with 4 different rounds and without resting days, two athletes (Karl Kaufmann of West Germany and Otis Davis of US) arriving with the same time (44”9) who is still valid for reaching the final in every top championship.

We can’t also say the modern preparation for Long Jump can give advantages to the athletes, if (apart Beamon in Mexico City) in 1960 Ralph Boston won with 8.12 on a board of earth, and with the same performance could win the bronze medal in OG 2012 in London.

Looking at the endurance events, we can say that shorter the event, less room of improvement finding something new in training. But, for longer events, we can say very consistant improvements, and this fact is due to three factors :

a) Change of training

b) Change of mentality

c) Change of organization in the races

About training, we can identify some fundamental period, when some coach put something different from other coaches in his training :

a) The interval – training, invented by the German Coach and Doctor Gerschel and Reindel in the late 1930, based on the work of the heart

b) The Fartlek, developed by Swedish and Finnish, that means “running game”

c) The period of long and easy run, based on the concept of “capillarization”, following Van Aaken

d) The period of Marathon Training (1955-1970), from Percy Cerutty and Arthur Lydiard

e) The period of development of mileage (1970-80), with peaks of more than 200 miles per week

f) The period of high intensity and medium mileage (1980-1990), using also for longer distances repetitions with very short recovery

g) The period of high intensity with high mileage and the use of long repetitions on track (1990-2010), system developed with top African runners

h) At the same time, in Europe and America, the period with high intensity and drastic reduction of mileage (when we were no more able to produce any good runner, and in Europe we are still paying this mentality)

i) Now, the period of high mileage with frequent long and fast runs, that is the reason of the improvement in Marathon-

About mentality, we can say that, when some athlete is able to go under some mythical barrier (for example, 4’ for mile, 3’30” for 1500m, 13’ and 27’ for 5000 and 10000, 1 hour in HM and 2:05’ in full marathon), it’s easier for the other to have a different vision about the personal limits. This is directly connected with the third factor :

Different organization of the races, during the period 1995-2005 on the track, now on road races (specifically the use of pacers, previously not allowed, in order to try records or top performances).

What we can do in training different from the past ?

1) We use now, with African runners, long intervals on track at high intensity (for example, 4 times 3000m in 8’10” running during the recovery 6 times 60m sprint uphill at max speed), and fast long continuous run very fast (from 8 to 15 km when preparing 10000m, from 25 to 35 km when preparing Marathon) that 30 years ago nobody used.

2) We use high volume of specific intensity, with different percentage of “specific mileage” compared with the past, when the percentage of easy run was very much higher, and the percentage of “specific long fast run” was very much lower

So, there are big differences between the training of the athletes of today, and the training of the athletes of 30 years ago, but of course, if some coach continues to use the same old system, there is no reason because the performances of the athletes can improve from the past.

We can say that the big changes were in longest distances, and the last changes in Marathon only. Nothing really changed in the preparation for track events after 2005, and in this case we can say that the main reason is the migration of the most part of talented athletes of endurance from track to road races, and at the same time the reduction of competitions of high level on track (10000m practically disappeared, 5000m in the DL only more, and globally 28 meetings cancelled in Europe during the last 3 years).

Here, you can see the improvement of WR every 10 years, starting from 1970, and the percentage of improvement :

800m 1500m 5000m 10000m

1970 : ………….1’44”3…………………………….3’33”1…………………………13’16”6…………………… 27’39”4

1980 : 1’42”4 (-1”9=1.82%)….3’31”36 (1”74=0.81%)…13’08”4 (8”2=1%)……………..27’22”5 (16”9=1.02%)

1990 : 1’41”73 (0”67=0.65%)…3’29”46 (1”90=0.90%)..12’58”39 (10”01=1,27%)….27’08”23 (14”27=0.87%)

2000 : 1’41”11 (0”62=0.61%)…3’26”00 (3”46=1.68%)..12’39”36 (20”03=2.57%)….26’22”75 (45”48=2.79%)

2010 : 1’40”92 (0”19=0.19%)…3’26”00 (-------)………….12’37”35 (2”11=0.28%)…….26’17”53(5”22=0.33%)

2015 : 1’40”92 (-----)…………….3’26”00 (-------)…………. 12’37”35 (---------)…………….26’17”35 (---------)

1970 : ………………8’21”98…………………………………..1:03’53”…………………………2:09’29”

1980 : 8’05”4 (16”6 = 3.30%)……………1:02’16” (1’37” = 2.53%)………….2:09’01” (28” = 0.36%)

1990 : 8’05”35 (0”05 = 0.01%)………….1:00’55” (1’21” = 2.17%)…………2:06’50” (2’11” = 1.69%)

2000 : 7’55”72 (9”63 = 1.98%)……………..59’17” (1’38” = 2.68%)………..2:05’42” (1’08” = 0.89%)

2010 : 7’53”63 (2”09 = 0.44%)…………….58’23” (54” = 1.52%)………….2:03’59” (1’43” = 1.36%)

2015 : 7’53”63 (----------)……………………..58’23” (--------------)……………2:02’57” (1’02” = 0.83%)

I let everybody interpret these numbers, but one thing it’s clear : the improvement in longer distances is very much more deep than in shorter distances, and this because the possibility to change something in training is more available in the sector of long endurance than in the sector of middle distances.

If we look at the total improvement in the full period of 45 years, we have the following data :

800m (from 1’44”3 to 1’40”91) - improvement of 3”39 (3.25%)

1500m (from 3’33”1 to 3’26”00) - improvement of 7”10 (3.33%)

5000m (from 13’16”6 to 12’37”35) - improvement of 39”25 (4.28%)

10000m (from 27’39”4 to 26’17”53) - improvement of 1’21”87 (4.93%)

Steeple (from 8’21”98 to 7’53”63) - improvement of 28”35 (5.65%)

HM (from 1:03’53” to 58’23”) - improvement of 5’30” (8.61%)

Marathon (from 2:09’29” to 2:02’57”) - improvement of 6’32” (5.04%)

If we don’t consider HM (event that found the opportunity to be frequently organized only after 2000), we can see that the percentage of improvement in marathon is not very different from the improvement in 10000, while 800m and 1500m are similar as trend. The difference is that the most part of improvement for 800 and 1500m happened before 2000, while for marathon the last years are the most prolific.

i didnt even know makloufi was still around.the question is just how bad is the leval of doping in kenya,and ethiopia? whether or not it compares with russia,or maybe somewhere like morocco,usa or spain?i wouldnt have thought it would possibly be as bad as russia,or even ukraine,but whats your opinion on this?mine is i think its pretty rife,but not like russia.

Metric Miler and Record Book, you have been owned.

Renato: thanks for all your comments. Great to hear your insight.

Why must Makh be doping or the Kenyans doping because they aren't tested? Since when has testing been efficient or caught cheaters? Armstrong wasn't caught what makes you think anyone else w resources would be. Let's look at it like this:

1) you live in a place with little or no OOC testing so you do whatever you want during training. I'll accept that

2) you are a huge success in your own country and in international competitions and there is a lot of money and resources behind you (Armstrong, Farah etc.) and you can be tested constantly but can stay several steps ahead of the testers w new drugs, etc.

So I think that you would have to be nuts to think that anyone is clean.

That being said, I have no clue why everyone just bashes Canova out of hand. No one actually listens to what he's saying, they just twist what he's saying to make him seem like a fool. I actually tend to agree with what he's saying or at least see the possibility. Not that EPO doesn't work on Kenyans but that there isn't any data on how it affects people born and raised and who have trained at altitude their whole lives. What he's saying does make sense at least on some level. Not to mention, who in their right mind would keep coming back to a place to share their coaching secrets while constantly getting bashed yet he continues to do so because of his love of the sport. Only on let's run w a bunch of running nerds and pvssies could they be internet tough guy know it alls who actually know nothing but yet somehow know more than the best coach alive today. You are a bunch of fools.