I don't think I am being ridiculous in questioning the effectiveness of microdosing EPO when there are no good studies into it.
Anecdotal evidence is something different.
What you have posted is interesting, certainly.
I would also like to say that the biological passport has caught quite a lot of athletes so it may not be as easy as they make out in that article to beat anymore.
I wonder how the biological passport is being beaten if it monitors pretty much all the relevant blood markers to do with oxygen carrying capacity including RBC, haemoglobin and haematocrit. It doesn't just test for EPO. So if an athlete is taking tiny amounts of EPO but their blood remains within normal levels on all counts then where is the enhanced performance coming from? On the same point, how can diluting your blood enable you to retain the performance enhancing qualities you have gained from taking EPO? Diluted doped blood would have the same oxygen carrying capacity per ml as normal blood would it not?
I am no expert in the medical field so perhaps you can explain.
Scientists & doctors please chime in - Is EPO a prescription given to malaria patients as a 2:05 marathoner claims?
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rjm33 wrote:Well done Clerk!
I just learned a new doping excuse from you...I had never heard of hypothyroidism before as an excuse...creative...and yet makes no sense...so that does sound perfect to be used as an explanation at UCI!
this shows you have no clue about basic pathology
if you weren't desperately googling for info, you wouda realised hypothyroidism is more art than science, albeit wonderful endocrinologists can whip it nearer
The Tyler Hamilton excuse... when he was caught doing a homologous blood transfusion... used by his lawyers...to explain why he had blood from another person in his bloodstream...was that Tyler was a human chimera with a vanishing twin
interesting
what test did they use as you already said transfusions are
"undetectable"
???
This doping explanation wins the comedy prize world record for funniest doping excuse ever!
drivel
what are doping detection for
autologous
v
intrinsic ???
In fact... I think his comedy record may stand forever!
no
utterly
0 pay-grade -
Please keep your insulting tone and illegible comments out of interesting discussion such as this.
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eh ?
micro-dosing epo
=
micro-dose crap
for a drug to work, you need buckets of it
not slithers
have you a clue ? -
Well, twice that quote and link got cut. I won't try to paste again, but if you want the original link, it is available on pubmed with keywords hyperhydration and biopassport. I had also linked another study showing that micro dosing can increase HGB by 10% and never trip a control.
And while that is a far cry from the kind of study you describe, something that shows elites with micro dosing can improve performance but remain undetected. We have a starting point to draw infernces from. -
ventolin^3 wrote:
eh ?
micro-dosing epo
=
micro-dose crap
for a drug to work, you need buckets of it
not slithers
have you a clue ?
Thanks for sharing your knowledge. We are much better informed now.
Microdosing improves hgb by 10% study here
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/21336951/?i=2&from=/25773052/related -
Metric Miler wrote:
I have not seen scientific evidence that microdosing EPO below the level that would trigger a positive urine test causes increased performance in professional athletes. I do not dispute it could work, but I am unsure of it's effectiveness. I don't think I am being ridiculous.
I am not well versed in this anecdotal evidence, especially with regards to beating the blood passport. The blood passport is designed to pick up on unusual patterns in an athletes blood.
The biological passport is pretty advanced.
'Dodgy values' aren't evidence in themselves, you can't just ban someone for being suspicious.
Don't appreciate the passive aggressiveness by the way ;).
Bro, if only there was this way to search for information that one does with a computer and something called a web browser. You could get some answers to your questions.
Until then bro, I guess we chill and have a brew. -
If studies show that EPO could be used to treat malaria, could athletes get a TUE for its use? I don't suppose it would be impossible to find a doctor in Kenya to diagnose "malaria" and prescribe EPO as a treatment 6 weeks before a race.
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Clerk wrote:
Well, twice that quote and link got cut. I won't try to paste again, but if you want the original link, it is available on pubmed with keywords hyperhydration and biopassport. I had also linked another study showing that micro dosing can increase HGB by 10% and never trip a control.
And while that is a far cry from the kind of study you describe, something that shows elites with micro dosing can improve performance but remain undetected. We have a starting point to draw infernces from.
Once again nice find. I still wonder though, is this increase actually tangibly performance enhancing? Why would the biological passport not detect the increase in haemoglobin if that is what it is supposed to do? Being a software I am sure the sensitivity could just be increased.
What's more, in highly trained individuals, would be able to get anywhere near the 10% increase in total blood haemoglobin shown? Also, the study itself as I'm sure you realise is not that great. -
Metric Miler wrote:
Why would the biological passport not detect the increase in haemoglobin if that is what it is supposed to do?
Of course an increase of 10% is detected, say from 14.0 to 15.4 g/dl. However, the system is designed in such a way that one can dope a lot without getting blamed, officially in order to avoid false positives. Same story as with the 4 : 1 testosterone ratio.
Look at Paula for example. Her Hb went up from 12.0 to 15.6 in two days (2003 case), and she got away with it, citing altitude and hemocentration. Even her 16.2 g/dl in 2012 got excused in the end, although that at least triggered a formal review by three experts, after the first one found it suspicious. -
rjm33 wrote:
You are right...malaria is prevalent in Africa...so it could just be a coincidence.
But the world record holder in the marathon running 2:03... 6 weeks after a bout of malaria...which causes anemia!...seems almost too unbelievable!...
...this is starting to sound familiar to another thread... which is now becoming very boring...
The Italian connection is key. Look at what Dr. Francesco Conconi was publishing a study about in the year 1988, the same year EPO was banned by the International Ski Federation that governs cross-country skiers:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3384528
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francesco_Conconi
http://www.iaaf.org/athletes/kenya/martin-kiptoo-lel-191629
For another coincidence...
Martin Lel won the World Half-marathon Championships at Vilamoura in 2003 ...the same year that Paula Radcliffe won the women's championship race. I have heard it was warm that day... but nobody in the world knows what the actual temperature was during the race that day!
For another coincidence, as you can see from the link above...Martin Lel was coached by Claudio Berardelli... and his manager was Frederico Rosa...
RJM, I haven't been on this thread since the day I posted it. Please email me if you have any questions.
Youre posts seem to have no logic.
This is how I see it.
1) Malaria is common in Kenya. I'm not sure what some korean-kenyan testing positive has anything to do with the rosa group. Is it possible groups could have been using EPO for a long time in Kenya? of course it is but that has nothing to do with the case wer are talking about here.
2) The thing you seem to not understand is people will say they had malaria when they simply got sick so it's not necessarily malaria even if it's in the press that way.
3) I've learned from posting this thread as a few people have posted, or emailed me that it is indeed possible that someone was given EPO after they got malaria. So it's possible this guy Erupe didn't mean to cheat.
Instead you've taken this thread back into the 1980s. -
Other greats had malaria wrote:
So, with regards to this athlete, I see a big issue: being able to come back from that kind of illness and perform as a 2:05 marathoner.
Filbert Bayi, the great world record setting miler, had recurring malaria.
Billy Konchellah won two world 800m titles. Pretty sure he missed one of the world championships in between his two titles because he had tuberculosis, and had to stop training on more than one occasion because of TB. He was also sick in another way, but no need to dredge that up again.
What's your point? I hope you are making fun of RJM. EPO didn't exist when Bayi competed. -
Clerk wrote:Thanks for sharing your knowledge. We are much better informed now.
Microdosing improves hgb by 10% study here
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/21336951/?i=2&from=/25773052/related
i see nothing about those being elite athletes
then they give no dosage units
if micro-dosing shoots up Hb by 10% then why are no records of 30 or 40% increases with full doses ??? -
ventolin^3 wrote:
i see nothing about those being elite athletes
Ohhh. Good point! They MUST BE genetically distinct from the rest of humanity.
Tell us all about how smoking doesn't cause cancer because there's never been a causal link established. -
rojo wrote:
3) I've learned from posting this thread as a few people have posted, or emailed me that it is indeed possible that someone was given EPO after they got malaria. So it's possible this guy Erupe didn't mean to cheat.
Possible? Yes. Like lottery possible. Likely? No. This is like the "training at altitude" excuse.
You had several anonymous posts claiming to be medical doctors repeating the basic opinion that EPO is a very unusual therapy. Maybe it's easier than a blood transfusion in some locales?
We're back to the excuse being unlikely. -
pop_pop!_v2.2.1 wrote:Ohhh. Good point! They MUST BE genetically distinct from the rest of humanity
good chance they are
that's why there are elites & non-elites
elites may have genes which code for higher Hb or better lactate tolerance/use
this study is useless unless carried out on elites, which ain't happening as they have a career
what are "average" elites baseline Hb compared to the chumps in the study ???
when you are thinking it over, consider law of diminishing returns where you already have high natural &/or trained Hb as in elites ??!!!
Tell us all about how smoking doesn't cause cancer because there's never been a causal link established
clueless
you have no idea of science
what are numbers in world who smoke v number of elites on epo ??? -
rojo wrote:
rjm33 wrote:
You are right...malaria is prevalent in Africa...so it could just be a coincidence.
But the world record holder in the marathon running 2:03... 6 weeks after a bout of malaria...which causes anemia!...seems almost too unbelievable!...
...this is starting to sound familiar to another thread... which is now becoming very boring...
The Italian connection is key. Look at what Dr. Francesco Conconi was publishing a study about in the year 1988, the same year EPO was banned by the International Ski Federation that governs cross-country skiers:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3384528
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francesco_Conconi
http://www.iaaf.org/athletes/kenya/martin-kiptoo-lel-191629
For another coincidence...
Martin Lel won the World Half-marathon Championships at Vilamoura in 2003 ...the same year that Paula Radcliffe won the women's championship race. I have heard it was warm that day... but nobody in the world knows what the actual temperature was during the race that day!
For another coincidence, as you can see from the link above...Martin Lel was coached by Claudio Berardelli... and his manager was Frederico Rosa...
RJM, I haven't been on this thread since the day I posted it. Please email me if you have any questions.
Youre posts seem to have no logic.
This is how I see it.
1) Malaria is common in Kenya. I'm not sure what some korean-kenyan testing positive has anything to do with the rosa group. Is it possible groups could have been using EPO for a long time in Kenya? of course it is but that has nothing to do with the case wer are talking about here.
2) The thing you seem to not understand is people will say they had malaria when they simply got sick so it's not necessarily malaria even if it's in the press that way.
3) I've learned from posting this thread as a few people have posted, or emailed me that it is indeed possible that someone was given EPO after they got malaria. So it's possible this guy Erupe didn't mean to cheat.
Instead you've taken this thread back into the 1980s.
Thanks, but I do not have any questions for you at the moment Rojo, since I do not think you could help me come up with any answers to the many questions I have about doping. -
rojo wrote:
Other greats had malaria wrote:
So, with regards to this athlete, I see a big issue: being able to come back from that kind of illness and perform as a 2:05 marathoner.
Filbert Bayi, the great world record setting miler, had recurring malaria.
Billy Konchellah won two world 800m titles. Pretty sure he missed one of the world championships in between his two titles because he had tuberculosis, and had to stop training on more than one occasion because of TB. He was also sick in another way, but no need to dredge that up again.
What's your point? I hope you are making fun of RJM. EPO didn't exist when Bayi competed.
Thank you very much, Rojo. I consider a comment like that from you to be expected.
If you talk to Paula Perfect Transparency Radcliffe soon, please ask her if she is ever going to release any blood test results for hemoglobin and reticulocyte levels from around her 2:15 or 2:17 world record marathons.
That is a question I have for Paula that you can help me get answered.
Thanks so much for helping me get some answers to my questions. -
TrackCoach wrote:
rjm33 wrote:
The site http://www.kenyarunners.com/pages/167372/index.htm
...also states that EPO was available in Europe as early as 1984...which means all of my previous research which established the earliest verified use of EPO by any endurance athletes in any sports as 1986 may be wrong!...since I was basing my information on US availability of EPO..
...EPO may have been available in Europe earlier than the US...I will try to check..
This is very interesting if true...Alberto Cova won 1984 10K gold for Italy, and in 1988 Salvatore Antibo won 10k silver (gold was won by Boutayeb(sp) a Moroccan runner!)...and Gelindo Bordin of Italy won the 1988 marathon gold, and Boston 1990...
.......this story gets better every day!....
The U.S. has always been late to the various doping techniques. Conte is the only guy who put in the effort to be original. Meldonium has been around for years and the U.S. barely knew about it. Europeans, more specifically the Scandinavian countries were blood doping by transfusing their own blood since the early 70s and using EPO since the late 70s. This is documented for endurance skiers, but I assume it wasn't long after that runners were using EPO as well. I am pretty sure, EPO predates the mid-80s.
bringing this back cause YOU WERE RIGHT mr TrackCoach!
