Jack Daniel's insane workouts

You are right these are hard workouts.

But 4 min rest for 6x mile seems fair. If this is a sub 4 miler, 4:25 seems easier. Imagine a 4:30 miler running 6xmile in 5:00 w/ 4 min rest. I have actually done a workout similar to that in similar shape. It was only 5xmile.

10x 1k has 2-3 min rest. Again take a 4:30 miler, that's more like 3:03 1k... not that crazy

10x 800 does seem crazy. to a 4:30 guy that would be 10x800 in around 2:17ish. 4 min rest though, but still I agree that's a tough one.

Those workouts seem pretty reasonable to me. The biggest concern for me would be volume.

I'm a much slower runner, but am able to do workouts with a similar percentage differential between race and workout times. So, yeah, they seem pretty damn fast, but so are those PRs. And running 100 mile weeks ought to give the strength to come close to those volume goals.

I've tried to do Daniels several times and last around a month before crawling off to bed achy and injured.

very hard system.

but one thing that makes profesh runners profesh is the ability to recover from these workouts.

I agree that those are damn fast PR's and I have fairly no idea of what you can do with running 100 mpw but still ...

There are threads here where people are complaining that 5-6x 1k @ faster than 5k pace or

3x 800 @ mile pace are too hard.

Therefore how can the listed workouts sound 'reasonable' to you in any way ?

I doubt if many sub-4 milers are getting their workouts from a book.

Working off experience as a coach (but not as an athlete who did similar kinds of workouts): those seem pretty crazy to me. Some of his track workouts (the 800m runners' workouts, maybe?) are renowned for being extremely difficult; these sound similar. Come on, 10 x 800 @ 2:00?

This has been my fitness line a few times in my career. The 1000s would be no problem at all. The miles are hard but again quite doable. I did 4 x mile solo cutting down from 4:30 to 4:20 with only 90 seconds rest, and I wouldn't say it was brutal. 6 @ 4:25 with a good group would be no problem.

The 800s... No way. That must be a misprint or something. Granted I'm more of a half marathon guy so mile pace reps aren't my forte, but this sounds insane.

The 600s I wouldn't have a clue, I've never attempted something like that.

800s should be no faster than 2 mile race pace, so 2:07+ w/2m recovery. More like 2:10 early season or fewer reps

Univarse wrote:

This has been my fitness line a few times in my career. The 1000s would be no problem at all. The miles are hard but again quite doable. I did 4 x mile solo cutting down from 4:30 to 4:20 with only 90 seconds rest, and I wouldn't say it was brutal. 6 @ 4:25 with a good group would be no problem.

The 800s... No way. That must be a misprint or something. Granted I'm more of a half marathon guy so mile pace reps aren't my forte, but this sounds insane.

The 600s I wouldn't have a clue, I've never attempted something like that.

Yeah I'd actually agree with this. The first two workouts are very hard but certainly doable for someone with 3:58/13:44 fitness. I'd say the 3x600 workout is a little bit tougher, especially for a 1500-5k oriented guy. It's doable but you'd need full recovery between reps and I think it would be so hard that it wouldn't really be a productive use of your time. The 10x800 workout though is utterly impossible for anyone who isn't a world class runner. Even a sub-13 guy would find that workout very difficult.

Daniel's illusions wrote:

3) 10x 800 w/ 800 jog in 2:00

(that sounds absolutely insane)

8k distance @ R pace and equal distance recovery just as he suggests it.

Unless things have changed since I last read Daniels (2nd edition) the workout volumes are upper limits, which is a little different than "just as he suggests". If you can't hold form through a repeat at R pace, you're done for the day. 10x800 at mile pace does seem extreme to me. The rest are difficult but doable.

As far as I can remember he said the "lesser of 5% of your weekly mileage and 5 miles" which is for 100+ mpw exactly 5 miles.

Daniel's always gives a 10x800 with 800 jog @ mile pace the same difficulty as 20×400 with 400 jog or 40x200 with 200 jog at the same pace

Whereas for myself the 200s were a ton easier than the 800s

Whether you can do the workouts or not is not the point.

I know of a high school 4:26 miler who ran 10 x 800 in 2:09. But that is over training my friend!!!

I've always thought that Jack Daniels book was too complicated and the workout too hard. Americans run too many races and do too much interval training.

Americans run too many races and do too much interval training.[/quote]

Yet Daniels is actually not a big advocate of interval training at all. In his 24 week preparation cycle before an important race he recommends doing 6 ! Interval sessions out of 24x3= 72 quality workouts for 800 runners and milers, which is about 8,3%.

He admits that intervals are likely the most taxing form of running for the body and therefore excludes intervals completely in early season and competition phase

Ive personally seen the following workout done, which is not too dissimilar to the prescribed workouts Daniels set;

5 x 1000m in 2.45 with 90 seconds recovery

2 minutes recovery

1 x 800m in 2.02

The runner had pb's of 3.58, 7.50 and 13.15 at the time of doing the workout. So the above workouts arent really that difficult, especially with the long recoveries. It seems reasonable that a sub 30 minute 10k runner could do 10 x 1000m in 2.52 with 400m jog recovery, so taking 4 seconds off that for a 13.44 runner is not mind-blowing.

The only issue I have is with the 3 x 600 workout at 800m pace. I have seen 800m runners and milers do this session, or a session such as 4 x 400m at 800 pace, but with slightly longer recovery (upwards of 15 minutes). Once a runner goes over 500m at 800m pace I don't beleive it to be attainable to run at the same pace 5 minutes later, after running, however slowly, 1000m. Or your 800m p.r. is soft.

E.g.

If you ran 3 x 600 at 1.52 pace (1.24 through 600m) this is probably more conducive to a performance of 1.48 when we factor in the lactate tolerance the athlete will need to attain such pace of the 1000m recovery. My point being that basically for everything under Mile training, the Daniels pace system isnt very applicable, due to the difference in energy systems that are used for the 800m.

I would recommend instead

Part a) - long distance race pace

1 x 600m at race pace (1.24)

15 minutes active rest (jogging/walking etc.)

Part b) - race pace/under race pace fluctuation training

1 x 400m at race pace (56)

200m walk/jog recovery

1 x 300m at -2 seconds under race pace (40.5)

100m walk/jog recovery

1 x 300m at race pace (42)

200m walk/jog recovery

2 x 200m at -3 seconds under race pace (26.5) with 1 minute recovery

200m walk/jog recovery

2 x 200m at race pace (28) with 1 minute recovery

300m walk jog recovery

4 x 100m at race pace (14) with 25m turnabout recovery

runnerpb wrote:

Ive personally seen the following workout done, which is not too dissimilar to the prescribed workouts Daniels set;

5 x 1000m in 2.45 with 90 seconds recovery

2 minutes recovery

1 x 800m in 2.02

The runner had pb's of 3.58, 7.50 and 13.15 at the time of doing the workout. So the above workouts arent really that difficult, especially with the long recoveries.

It's another ballpark. A 13:15 runner doing 1 x 800 @ 2:02 at the end of a workout with 5 x 1k at slower than 5k pace is another universe when now you think of a 13:44 runner doing 10 x 800 @ 2:00 regardless of recovery.

I know a 13:1x guy as well and he did 5 x 1k with 3' rests at 2:34ish when he was fit. 10 x 800 @ 2:00 would have been improssible for him and he had run mid 7:30s and sub 4, too.

Pikachu

In the past, I found JD's VO2 workouts essentially impossible if intervals are longer than 600m. And that's using a recent Half Marathon time to get a VDOT value.

Well RPace is not a VO2 workout, however it gets really hard if go longer than 200, so over 800, wow...

IPace are the VO2 workouts and for a 77 runner it's 5k pace exactly so 5x1000@2'45with 2'45"-1'=1'45" recovery should be quite doable, not sure about 10x though!

You're underestimating the rest on these workouts. Most come out to 2-4 min--plenty for an elite athlete like you described.

For reference: I just did 7x1k with 2 min rest in 2:58

Chet Steadman wrote:

You're underestimating the rest on these workouts. Most come out to 2-4 min--plenty for an elite athlete like you described.

For reference: I just did 7x1k with 2 min rest in 2:58

How does is that "for reference"? We have no idea how fast you are