Improving performance in the last 100 of the 800

notgoodenough wrote:

I'm sure some of you will say it was dumb but its how I wanted to approach the race.

Thanks

That is an unassailable premise.

Maybe try six weeks to six-pack abs?

Duane?

It sounds like you ran a perfect 800.*It never gets any easier, you just go faster.If you have a lot left in the last 100/50 then you could have run faster. If you lock up at 600 then you went out to hard in the first 400.

notgoodenough wrote:

So had my state meet yesterday

Ran a PR, 1:57.xx but I wanted to and thought I could do better. I went out very fast with some other guys in my heat, and I'm sure some of you will say it was dumb but its how I wanted to approach the race. First 4 was 55.5 ish first 6 was 1:24.8 ish. So yeah I fell off hard that last 2. Really it wasn't even the last 2, it was the last 100 or 50. I was just crawling, my legs just completely locked up.

Thanks

angry willy wrote:

It sounds like you ran a perfect 800.

*It never gets any easier, you just go faster.

If you have a lot left in the last 100/50 then you could have run faster. If you lock up at 600 then you went out to hard in the first 400.

notgoodenough wrote:

So had my state meet yesterday

Ran a PR, 1:57.xx but I wanted to and thought I could do better. I went out very fast with some other guys in my heat, and I'm sure some of you will say it was dumb but its how I wanted to approach the race. First 4 was 55.5 ish first 6 was 1:24.8 ish. So yeah I fell off hard that last 2. Really it wasn't even the last 2, it was the last 100 or 50. I was just crawling, my legs just completely locked up.

Thanks

Yeah I was generally happy with the pacing. I wanted to not have anything left in the tank that last 50 or so, what I'd like to change is how my body performs when nothing is left in the tank. Obviously it is expected that you slow down, but the lactic acid just completely took over. Any training ideas for how to teach my body to perform better with a lot of lactic acid present?

notgoodenough wrote:

Yeah I was generally happy with the pacing. I wanted to not have anything left in the tank that last 50 or so, what I'd like to change is how my body performs when nothing is left in the tank. Obviously it is expected that you slow down, but the lactic acid just completely took over. Any training ideas for how to teach my body to perform better with a lot of lactic acid present?

It should be somewhat obvious. This is why people do workouts like 500, 300 with a minute between and 5 minutes between sets, trying to close that 300 at 800m pace or faster and the 500 a little slower.

Or any workout that gets you tired, then forces you to run fast, then repeats.

Nothing wrong with racing and going out with the pack but 55, 62 probably aren't ideal splits.

You are probably in 155-56 shape with better pacing.

To improve fitness I like to build up with 800 pace reps. Start with 100s or 150s early season. In mid season do workouts like 3x4x200 or 2x4x300. At the end of the season do workouts like 4x400 with long rest or 500s like the guy above mentioned.

Obviously do workouts slower and faster than race pace too plus racing so you should do an 800 paced workout every 10-14 days. Less often early season and then more often late season.

notgoodenough wrote:

Yeah I was generally happy with the pacing. I wanted to not have anything left in the tank that last 50 or so, what I'd like to change is how my body performs when nothing is left in the tank. Obviously it is expected that you slow down, but the lactic acid just completely took over. Any training ideas for how to teach my body to perform better with a lot of lactic acid present?

Your problem isn't training. You just didn't pace yourself correctly. If you don't pace correctly, you'll ALWAYS get taken over by fatigue. There's no training to avoid this.

runnerdnerd wrote:

It should be somewhat obvious. This is why people do workouts like 500, 300 with a minute between and 5 minutes between sets, trying to close that 300 at 800m pace or faster and the 500 a little slower.

Or any workout that gets you tired, then forces you to run fast, then repeats.

+1 Best advice so far. Generally focus on specific endurance. You didn't mention anything about your training, but I suppose there will have been 200s at (or faster) than race pace. It's also possible to work down from above. 4x300 slower than target, then 3x300 a little closer, then 2x400 (just for example, there are many ways).

I agree with those who said that it's not a question of the training as much as how you paced the race. Remember though that the 800 is more than 50% aerobic. If you quit doing long runs the week of competition, that might be another problem. As one old coach said to me when I asked him for advice, "well, they are still going to be breathing." Arthur Lydiard said that there isn't much running anyone can do without air. It's what we can do with the air that we have that matters!

I would think your race plan would be in order by the time the "state" meet comes around. (We do not have a state indoor meet. I actually think it's insane to run any indoor meets when you are in high school. You should be working on your base.) But you can always work on your race plan in every race you do run.

Not only is it physiologically harder to lead a race, it's also harder psychologically because you have to set the pace and that takes some thinking. The rest of the pack just falls in line. The hardest part is to run on the inside of the first lane and not get boxed in.

I completely agree that 55/62 isn't ideal pacing. The thing is in the race prior which was a districts championship i went out slower, about 58 and got caught behind the pack and had to use a lot of energy to fight through the pack. I ended up running about 2:00. It was a flat track but still a disappointing time. My thinking during this race was to get out fast and not get caught behind the pack, and that the energy I would lose by getting out fast would actually be less than the energy lost fighting through the pack. In retrospect I perhaps should have picked something in between those two extremes.

To summarize the training advice:

800 paced workouts ranging from 150-500 with little rest (while this seems obvious, this is not something my coach likes to do as he follows Daniel's training plan for the 800, which really has little to none of this type of work in it. This will be something I'll have to do after practice, before school in the morning, or on the weekends)

Continue my long runs the weeks leading up to my big meet (something I did not do)

Anything else?

notgoodenough wrote:

angry willy wrote:

It sounds like you ran a perfect 800.

*It never gets any easier, you just go faster.

If you have a lot left in the last 100/50 then you could have run faster. If you lock up at 600 then you went out to hard in the first 400.

Yeah I was generally happy with the pacing. I wanted to not have anything left in the tank that last 50 or so, what I'd like to change is how my body performs when nothing is left in the tank. Obviously it is expected that you slow down, but the lactic acid just completely took over. Any training ideas for how to teach my body to perform better with a lot of lactic acid present?

You need to do both. 55/62 is NOT good pacing.

The other poster's comment about race-specific workouts is right on. Break 600-1000 meters of running into pieces. Do them with short rest, at race pace. Repeat. Get faster at them. Make the rest shorter. You can now better tolerate lactic acid at race pace. Congratulations. The 800 is not rocket science.

runnerdnerd wrote:

It should be somewhat obvious. This is why people do workouts like 500, 300 with a minute between and 5 minutes between sets, trying to close that 300 at 800m pace or faster and the 500 a little slower.

Or any workout that gets you tired, then forces you to run fast, then repeats.

This.