Henry Marsh's training

There was a pretty good thread about Henry Marsh awhile ago. Here's the link

http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?board=1&id=318598&thread=318598

Mon-a.m. 4

p.m. 10 brisk (under an hour)

Tues-ladders (200-400-600-800-1200-800-600-400-200) @ race pace (every other lap over barriers)

Wed- a.m. 2 p.m. 3-4

Thursday-1.5 miles of 200s, 300s, and 400s (less hurdling)

Fri- a.m. 2 p.m. 3-4

Sat-race or hard 2000m over bariers

Sun-off

interesting part with marsh taking the fall off and starting "base" in december. i have also heard that marsh's sometime training partner would also take 6 weeks off and then commence with a 6 week period of 6 miles per day with sun off ( mormon runners).

if i may ask, what book did you get this info on? did it mention how marsh broke out the " 6-7 miles per day on a treadmill"? the reason i ask is marsh was known to run very short distances such as 2AM and 3-4 PM in between his hard days on Tue / Thi / Sat using the traditional Bowerman System. The only variations being Marsh took Sun off and did his long run of up to 10 miles on Mon afternoon.

It would also be interesting to know what pace Marsh covered on distance runs. I have read in very early articles from Runners World ( 1984) in an interview with Marsh that he " ran 10 miles on Monday at a pace of 5:30 - 6 min pace, depending on the time of the season".

For periodization, I think that Marsh adopted the Bowerman date pace / goal pace method, starting off with short , light repetions of 150 - 200 meters and then progressing to longer VO2 max sessions using 800M - 1200M intervals totaling 3000 Meters ( Race Volume) and a shorter session on Thu at goal pace ( 8 - 12x 200M at 33 for Marsh).

I also read that he dedicated Saturdays to race simulations, test efforts or races during the preparation period. This probably ties into your comment on April being the start of his formal track training.

Hope this helps with your question on periodization.

When you said he "took off" do you men that from the time he finished the outdoor track season (say Mid-August) until December, that he did nothing (no running or cross training)?

Doug Padilla told me he ran 30-40 miles a week. Great acceleration at the end of a 5000m.. he ran smooth 56 laps that looked like 60s. Both he and Marsh had great tactical speed. Both emphasized quality in training.

I'm not sure what kind of training he did, but he did do just enough to still be considered the best US steepler of all time. Lucky for him he had that one 8:09.17 race compared to Croghan's 8:09:76, because Croghan had better times save that one race for Marsh.

Both were studs. Marsh gets to claim he was the best based on one race. If not for that, Croghan would be the best.

Malmo will respond in 3,2,1...

Take a look at the all-time American list. I remember a sick stat like Mark having 15 of the top 23 times in the event. More consistent during a much tougher/deeper time (read: Kenyans). True enough however, there were quite a number of non-Afrians running around 8:10 during Marsh's time than now. Were all white steeplers blood-doping (as many claim Henry did) at this time?

I was able to go back and pull up an old track & field quartlerly review, where Bowerman published a nice 5 page

article on steeplechase training, using Marsh as an example.

Some of the points Bowerman made were about Marsh's training

were:

1) long run was between 6 - 9 miles

2) used date pace / goal pace interval program, starting with short 150 - 200 meter repetions and building to 800 - 1200 meter runs at "date pace". several workouts were run taking 1 lap over the barriers and then next over the flat.

interesting fact, Bowerman did not have Marsh go over 3,000 meters of interval work ( race distance).

3) 40-50 miles per week was the average. Bowerman points out

that consistency is more important than "how many miles you run per week". Marsh also "prefers nice steady paced short distance runs that are at a "steady state" ie probably around 5:30 - 5:50 pace.

4) Recuperation days. Bowerman mentioned that Marsh took

Wed, Fri as light jogging days. Sun was a day of rest, of whic Bowerman commented " I would prefer Henry ran his long run on Sunday and not Monday".

5) Thursdays dedicated to goal pace work, with shorter intervals of 150M - 300M, totaling 1 - 1.5 miles. This was then concluded with some steeple technique work and a shorter fartlek run away from the track.

6) Peaking and nothing ever faster than "7/10ths effort",

being that Bowerman never had Marsh "sprint all out in any workout and emphasized fast relaxed efforts even during peak

racing periods".

Other notes:

Morning runs - were not mentioned in this article, but in another article ( Runner's World 84')Marsh mentions in his training that he ran 2 - 4 miles 6 days a week and averaged

more like 2-3 miles "on the treadmill in the comfort of my home. this is helpful during the Utah winters where get our share of snow".

Long run distance - Bowerman says 6 - 9 miles, but other articles say 10 Miles.

Off Season - Marsh did take a full one month rest in October, before comemncing a month of just easy joggin - running with a total of 20- 30 miles per week. This would then progress to the training program start in November. It would be interesting to see if Marsh ever followed a period of just distance training without any repetion training on Tue / Thu / Sat. What I have read about the origional Bowerman " Orgegon System " is that Bowerman never had periods o fjust distance training and had the guys on run intervals / reps an average of two days per week.

If anyone else has more information, please share.

Bowerman's collegiate guys did quite a bit of fartlek in the off-season. By winter they were being introduced to interval work, but fartlek was still part of the mix until spring. By spring, you would be given a longer rep workouts with most of it at date-pace, typically Tuesday, shorter rep workouts on Thursday at a quicker pace (say 8 x 200 at goal pace for the mile) and a Saturday race or fartlek workout (sometime a mix of track reps, fartlek, and more track reps). So, Henry's training schedules fit right in with what Bowerman gave his other runners, though some of them ran 15-20 miles per week, more.

Bowerman looked at what each man could do. Looking at Henry, who had a history of illnesses, Bowerman prescribed lower mileage, rep workouts in lower volume, and applied principles of moderateion, progression (not aggression), consistency, goal orientation, and specificity. Tinman

he said in an interview that he spend a lot of time practicing "running on his toes", maybe thats why he was such an efficient runner/steeplechaser, he wasnt world-class in any other event, couldnt even run under 7:50 for 3k-flat.

TinMan,

thanks for your insight into Bowerman's distribution of intensity ( intervals, reps) throughout the training year.

i have also heard william freeman speak at coaching events

( this is about 8 - 9 years ago) and he did mention that

bowerman gave his charges fartlek sessions such as

1-2-3-2-1 at " current race distance effort", so in marsh's case, running at current 3,000 meter effort. i would imagine that the thursday, as always presented with the orgegon system, a day on the track runnign shorter goal pace reps ( 8x200). goo dpoint on marsh's tolerance. most bowerman guys were around 65-70 / week with the long middle distances.

any idea or estimate of marsh's pace / intensity on in between recovery days? how about how the 40 - 50 mile sper week marsh ran were distributed throughout the week in doubles and the like? i have also seen marsh's peak period training log and there are days where he only runs 1 mile am and 1 mile pm! its as if the amount energy taken to just get ready for a 1 mile training bout is more than the run itself!

what are your thoughts onthe benefits of just a 1 mile jog - run?

I spoke with Henry Marsh this evening. He responded to an email I sent to him at

henry@henrymarsh.com

. Here's what he shared with regards to his training:

Always took a month after summer track season. Commented that he "always did better late summer in meets than the June nationals in U.S. Said that the type of training he did may have atrributed to a longer peak or late peak in summer.

Henry then spent 1 month "just getting back into a training regime, running 20 -30 miles a week easy".

MOndays were the biggest mileage day, with 3-4 miles in the morning, followed by a 10 Miler ( his long run). Henry mentioned that " the 10 miler got fatser as the year progressed. His fastest was 57:00 towards the end of the year.

Tuesdays: 2-3 Miles am on the treadmill. PM: 3,000 Meters

of longer intervals and he usually ran in a ladder format.

The longest was 1200 Meters. Warm - Up was always a 1 mile jog, followed by stretching and then 1 mile of fast strides on straight, jog the curves and then some more stretching.

Wed: 2 - 3 Miles am treadmill

3- 4 miles pm treadmill or trails. Henry said that if was very tired he cut this down even to 1-2 mile jog an some stretching, because he wanted to be well recovered.

Thursdays: 3 - 4 miles am on treadmill. PM: 1500 meters of reps at faster than race pace; such as 200m, 300, or 400 m reps with a longer recovery. Henry said he got down to 26-28 for the 200's.

Friday: The second lightest recovery day of the week, behind the sunday rest day. 1 - 2 mile jog on treadmill am

1-3 mile jog on treadmill pm

Saturday: Early season, steady mileage of say 5- 7 miles.

progressing to 1-2 mile warm up - tempo run and warmdown. Race simulations in season or races. RAN SEVERAL INDOOR MEETS and SAID THIS BROUGHT HIM AROUND BETTER FOR OUTDOORS.

Sunday: REST DAY

Funny guy, actually. Said that guys in europe would laugh at his workouts and he would comment, "why should I train when i am resting for the races". That his unusaul short jogs of 2 miles or so the day before races or in between short workouts of 3-4 x200M or 800 Meter time trials.

Mentioned that his physical makeup was different than most and alot guys could not handle such little volume, where he could not handle higher volumes. Also got viruses alot from early overtraining before Bowerman.

Hope this is insightful.

sharold james wrote:

Funny guy, actually. Said that guys in europe would laugh at his workouts and he would comment, "why should I train when i am resting for the races". That his unusaul short jogs of 2 miles or so the day before races or in between short workouts of 3-4 x200M or 800 Meter time trials.

.

Sharold, I was one of those guys. Specifically, Doug Brown and I finished a workout of repeat miles at about 4:12 each. Marsh comes down to the track with his holy Mormon silk underwear hanging out his shorts and does 2 x 400 at 60 each. Put his sweats on, and was done. Brown and I turned heads toward each other in disbelief and we said, "we're screwed!"

Marsh ran 2 mile jogs around a farmhouse roundabout - about 100 meters each lap.

Sharold:

At the end of your response, you hit upon a key which reveals why Bowerman gave Marsh light workouts, relative to other elite runners: viral infections. Prior to working with Bill, Henry would get sick a lot. He did the big mileage buildup, the went to long intervals, then short reps, and he had troubles with maintaining his momentuum during the racing season. At one point, he asked Bill to take over his training. Bill was hesistant, I am told, but Henry got approval from Nike. I am fuzzy on the the details but I think that Henry's official coach prior to that was Harry Johnson, the famed South Eugene High School coach who was in charge of coaching many of Nike's locals. I need to ask a friend who was around in that era (an assistant to Bowerman at one point) to get the details. Perhaps Malmo can shed light upon this topic too.

Henry may have been the smoothest hurdler of any steepler during his era, perhaps even in our modern era. Such a skill, alone, made up for any flat-speed deficiencies he might have had. However, he did break 4 minutes for the mile, once, though he really didn't train for it or race it much.

I am fascinated by anomalies like Henry Marsh and Doug Padilla....and now I am realizing that a great many British runners ran little mileage and performed well. The one guy of all that I think who was amazing, but had a foreshortened career due to immigration problems was Simeon Kigen, Kenyan road racer who lived in Colorado before being deported. He ran about 60-65 per week and destroyed most runners on the roads. He was better than Mike Musyoki, I believe, and Mike was a silver medalist in the LA Olympic Games 10,000m. Tinman

haha, good story.

There was a log of Dave Wottles Training prior to his win in Munich and he had a similar approach in work-outs, examples:

3X400@59/57/59 or 2X3/4mile@ 3:20/3:21

Rob Swift wrote:

haha, good story.

There was a log of Dave Wottles Training prior to his win in Munich and he had a similar approach in work-outs, examples:

3X400@59/57/59 or 2X3/4mile@ 3:20/3:21

The one BIG difference is that Wottle was putting in 100 mile weeks in the fall and winter.

100mpw?

here from another thread:

I came across a copy of Wottle's log at my house. It is all handwritten, and those old enough to remember copiers quality from the 70's, difficult to read. I will give details only where necessary. Other than workouts, runs were ALL easy on the roads. No tempo's at all. The log I have begins January of '72 (junior year) and ends October of '73.

1/1/72 (January/week #1/'72): 29 miles Key workouts:

1)3/4 @:75 pace X 3 2)4X330 @ :52 r=440 jog 3)2m @ 10:00. Stopped 3rd workout due to sore knee.

1/2/72: 48 miles 1)Form drills. high knees, quick steps, ankle thrusts, etc. lasting 3/4 mile. All X 3 2)400@:70, 600@1:35, 3/4 form drills. 3)Time trial: 1:53.7 & 51.0

1/3/72: 78 miles 1)21/2m@12:52 2)5X330 form drills(fd) 3)baton exchanges & fartlek of 3 miles with hards @ 5 min pace. 4)Race 3/4 leg @ 3:01.5, Mile @ 4:09.8

1/4/72: 76 miles 1)3/4 fd X 3 2)5X250 increasing pace r=1:00 3)3X200 glides, 6X440 @ :75 pace with accelerations (sprint to full blast in from pace for 20 yards). 4)M@ 4:04.9(3rd), next day, 1/2@ 1:53.9(1st), 1/2 workout @ 1:59. Log reads "Blau!".

2/1/72: 77 miles 1)fd 2)440 @ :65 pace with 3 accs., 1/2@ 2;30, 5:50@1:15, 3x440@ :55. 3)200@27, 550@1:13, 440@59. 4)Race M @ 4:06(1st), 440@:50.0.

2/2/72: 76 miles 1)3 X 11/4 @ 6:18/6:30/6:33 2)fd 3)1100@3:41, 2X3/4@3:35 4)Race M @ 4:06.7(1st), M@4:08.7(1st)

2/3/72: 75 miles 1)3/4@3:48, M@5:00p w/ accs, 600@1:30, 800@:80pace w/ accs. 2)fd 3)Race 1500@ 3:44.8(1st), next day 880 @ 1:50.0(1st), 2M@8:55.9(2nd)

2/4/72: 63 miles 1)600@1:32, 4X440@:75/73/73/71, 4X440@ 70/69/73/67, M@:75 w/6 accs per lap 2)fd 3)1000y@ 2:08.2(1st)

3/1/72: 67 miles Workouts are all pretty similar to jan-Feb. I will only type the out of the ordinary or new twists and races. Remember, BGSU had no indoor track and NW Ohio is flat as a board and ALWAYS VERY WINDY!

March: 238 miles for month

Race: 2M @ 8:39.2 (1st)

Race: NCAA prelim 880 @ 1:53.6 (1st), final @ 1:51.8 (1st)

After NCAA, 3 days jogging 4 miles, & 4 days off.

Race: Must be National Champs: 880@1:47 or 1:49 (1st)

Lots of form drill days. A day of 400 @ :49, then warm-down

Race: 1:49.0 (1st), Mile @ 4:10.2 (1st), next day Mile@ 4:10.0 (1st)

April: 171 miles for the month

Dual Meet: 4:17.8/1:56 (1st) Must've been in BG

Training the same. Low milage, low reps, most around 5:00 pace with some accelerations and lots of active form drills.

Workout: 2M@ 9:19, M@4:38, M@4:30, 440@:65

Dual Meet: M@4:24, 880 @ 1:58, 440@ :51.2 (1st)

No run for a week (sore throat).

Race: M@ 4:04.5 (2nd-outkicked), next day, M @4:16.0(9th)

*At this point in 2003, he would be crucified on this board and give up. 4:16 in April can't lead to a gold medal!

May: 330 miles

Workout: 2X 440 @ :59/:55 Race: 440 @ :50.5(2nd), 5K@ 16:08(6th). At this point the switch was turned and everything started getting faster. Remember, Olympics were in early Sept. Workout: 2X440@:59 pace and all out last 100, 2X300@ :45/42/42 Race: 880@ 1:52.4 (1st), next day, M@ 3:58.5 (1st). W/O: 220@27,440@54, M@ 5:00 pace w/ 6 accs per lap. Race: heat 1:52.7(3rd), next day, M@ 4:05.6(1st), 1:49.4(1st), relay :47.9. More form drills, Race: 1:52 (1st), next day, 1:48.8(1st) :48.4 (4th)

w/o: 1)5 miles easy with middle 2 @ 10:00 2)400@ 57, 200@ 24/27/26. Accs.

June: 270 miles (Goal:Make Olympic team in 1500, run 3:55

Race: 1500 @ 3:46.9 (2nd), day off, then 3:39.7(1st)

w/o: 11/2 @ 2:30, then 4:28 mile

Race: 3:58.2(2nd)

w/o: 1)600@ 1:21, 200@ 26, 440@ 53 2)3X400@59/57/59

Race: 1:51.1 (1st), next day, 1:48.0(1st), next day 1:47.3 (1st). Every other day was no running for a week. Same workouts of 1 X mile in 4:38, form drill, 3-6 reps of 400's around :57, lots of acceleration drills.

July: 142 miles

Race: Olympic trials: 1:49.8 (1st), next day 1:47.4 (3rd), next day, 1:44.3 (1st). Comments for Dave was typically ok, good, very good, bad, etc. On this date it says. "Very good, can't believe it" Next day 5 mile jog, Next day off, then next 3 days of 1500's with comments.

1) 3:43.7(1st) BAD, heavy, 2)3:44.7 (2nd)back very sore, 3)3:42.3 (2nd)back still sore.

Dave then ran 4 workouts in the next 24 days (things like 3-4 X 400 @ :59), several easy 3-6 mile runs, & 12 days off due to Rest, Married, then knee pain. He added the goal of "Gold Medal at Munich".

August: 195 miles, 17 first week, then 46. Nothing but jog until Aug. 7, then 10X110 strides.

8/9: 2X3/4@ 3:20/3:21 8/10: 400@52, 200@26/25.8 8/12: 3 miles easy, then high jumped 5'9".

Race next 3 days: 1)1:49.3(2nd) 2)1:48.7(2nd) 3)1:52.1(1st)

8/16: No run 8/17: w/o: 3/4@3:21, 400@56, 3/4@3:26, 400@53, 200@29. 8/19: 5K w/o @ 14:51. 8/20: 1100 @ 2:00, then all out. 8/22: Mile @ 4:30, 440@60, 2X200@27 8/23: 600 @ 67, then all out, 5 X 400 @ 67,64,63,59,56. 8/24: 600@ 64, then all out, 6 X 400@ 59,59,60,57,58,56. 8/25: 1100 @ 2:14, then :28 and hold, 4X200 @ 26,27,26,27. 8/26: 3 miles easy. 8/27: No run 8/28: 5 X 400 @ 63,62,59,59,59. 8/29: 3 easy. 8/30: No run 8:31: Munich games: 1:47.6 (3rd--Very Good). 9/1: 1:48.6(1st--Good) 9/2: 1:45.9 (1st--Fair)

Dave goes on to run 3:40.7(2nd--Horrible) & 3:41.6(4th--V-Good), but didn't make the final. He took a few days off ran 1:47.3(3rd), then 4:02.5(4th) the next day, a day off, then 1500 @ 3:43.7 (6th) and the comment reads. Horrible, That's it! No running the next 4 weeks.

Tin Man,

I agree on the light workouts. Another point Henry made as when you trained with bOwerman he always gave you workouts where you feel you could do so much more, and on rare occasions more was done but with a price - getting hurt or sick.

Do you know any specifics on when Marsh would start formal track training when with Bowerman? I also heard ( not through Henry) that it was usually 150 - 200 meter runs only at "date pace" ( imagine running just 34 - 36 second 200's, for Marsh this must have been a joke). To add to this

"low volume consistency " training group, we need to also factor in Padilla. I heard he trained even less thank Marsh!

Both of these athletes ran indoors ( Padilla more emphasis than Marsh) and then outdoors from JUne - Sept.

Here some more info on Padilla since you mentioned him in your previous response. THe source is actually from Jack Daniels, a frequent guest on this board:

Phase 1: Rest after outdoor season - 6 weeks

Phase 2: 6 miles 6:00 Pace - 6 days / wk

Phase 3: Tue:3-4x800M ( starting at 2:30 early season, cutting down each week to 2:05-2:10) Thu:3-4x400M at 62-63,

cutting down to 55 - 57's (indoors) Fri: 1-2 x400M ( same as Thu)

Sat : Indoor meet

Sun: Rest

Other days just two easy runs of 3-5 miles each.

Outdoors went more like:

Phase 1 & 2 the same

Phase 3: Mon: 5-10 Miles@5:30 - 6:00 Pace

Tue: 800M, 1200M , 800M @63 - 65's, 1x400M 54.

Wed: 1-2 x800M @"tempo" to loosen up, easy run after.

Thu: 3-4x400M or 6x200M at 53 - 55's pace, easy 3-4 miles after.

Fri: 1-2 x400M ( same pace as Thu_, easy 3-4 miles after.

Sat: RACE OR TT

SUN: REST

Are there any good websites that tell more about Bowerman's training methods? I've read that Kenny Moore did 20 minute jogs on his easy days!