Just kinda playing around this morning. When I flex my feet (as opposed to "pointing" my toes), it feels like there is almost no effort by my calves. It occurred to me that that would be one less place for me to cramp during a marathon if I can work my calves less. (FWIW, I still had a solid midfoot strike; my foot strike is not out in front of me when I do this.)
Is this a thing?
Sure. Try running with stiff knees and hips too. Eliminate all muscular effort.
Well for me it's definitely a thing.
If I dont concentrate on my form, my foot is very relaxed and slightly hanging [in plantar flexion] upon first contact.
The last couple of months I try the exact same thing you talk about in your post. Running with more pre-tension in my foot [big toe a little up, foot more neutral instead of hanging.
I have a feeling that Im losing a lot less time on the ground running this way because the intention of pushing off is already embedded in the moment of first contact [if that makes any sense at all] and there is less loss of energy between landing and toe off.
Like this guy. his feet are in neutral but he lands cleanly [and clearly] on the balls of his feet.
please don't coach wrote:
Sure. Try running with stiff knees and hips too. Eliminate all muscular effort.
Go tell that to a sprinter. As if holding your feet neutral eliminates all muscular effort. Quite the opposite. Using pre-tension allows you to use the muscles in the right way, it doesn't "eliminate" the possibility.
polar bear wrote:
please don't coach wrote:Sure. Try running with stiff knees and hips too. Eliminate all muscular effort.
Go tell that to a sprinter. As if holding your feet neutral eliminates all muscular effort. Quite the opposite. Using pre-tension allows you to use the muscles in the right way, it doesn't "eliminate" the possibility.
We're talking about a large slow marathon runner here.
best thing you can do is run naturally, this foot flexing thing doesn't sound like a good idea
please don't coach wrote:
polar bear wrote:Go tell that to a sprinter. As if holding your feet neutral eliminates all muscular effort. Quite the opposite. Using pre-tension allows you to use the muscles in the right way, it doesn't "eliminate" the possibility.
We're talking about a large slow marathon runner here.
Yes, I understand. I was just trying to make clear that muscular effort is not eliminated, in my experience at least. It can be done at low speeds, too. If it's the most efficient way to run a whole marathon... no idea.
I dont know thejeff, but Im probably much slower than he is. For me its no problem to bounce around at a 730 pace in the way I outlined in my first post.
polar bear wrote:
please don't coach wrote:We're talking about a large slow marathon runner here.
Yes, I understand. I was just trying to make clear that muscular effort is not eliminated, in my experience at least. It can be done at low speeds, too. If it's the most efficient way to run a whole marathon... no idea.
I dont know thejeff, but Im probably much slower than he is. For me its no problem to bounce around at a 730 pace in the way I outlined in my first post.
If you are locking your foot then you're just using muscular force in a static way. That's just going to lead to fatigue and cramps somewhere else.
Jeff weighs over 200 so it's doubtful you are in fact slower.
I totally agree man. Really locking is definitely not something you should do. But preventing your foot from hanging down and preloading the spring a bit before landing... it gives you a bouncy stride, it works for me.
Running around like a stiff 200+ pounds robot is not good, haha
Thanks for the input, gang.
FWIW, I AM 200 lbs, and my goal pace IS 7:30... so, you are both right?
I get the idea about this causing fatigue somewhere else... I can picture my shins getting charlie horses pretty quickly, especially early on.
hey "please don't coach"... it is a little creepy when you know so much about me... get a registered username, bruh :-)
sincere thanks to you both, again.
thejeff wrote:
Thanks for the input, gang.
FWIW, I AM 200 lbs, and my goal pace IS 7:30... so, you are both right?
I get the idea about this causing fatigue somewhere else... I can picture my shins getting charlie horses pretty quickly, especially early on.
hey "please don't coach"... it is a little creepy when you know so much about me... get a registered username, bruh :-)
sincere thanks to you both, again.
You love to talk about yourself and you mentioned that you are a clyde. That isn't hard to remember.
I also know you are a jesus freak and would kill your son if a voice told you to.
Now who is creepy?
please don't coach wrote:
thejeff wrote:Thanks for the input, gang.
FWIW, I AM 200 lbs, and my goal pace IS 7:30... so, you are both right?
I get the idea about this causing fatigue somewhere else... I can picture my shins getting charlie horses pretty quickly, especially early on.
hey "please don't coach"... it is a little creepy when you know so much about me... get a registered username, bruh :-)
sincere thanks to you both, again.
You love to talk about yourself and you mentioned that you are a clyde. That isn't hard to remember.
I also know you are a jesus freak and would kill your son if a voice told you to.
Now who is creepy?
A: The stalker
I don't believe dorsiflexed preloading is real. Sprinters dorsiflex in the air but always plantar flex well before footstrike, re-shortening the calf muscles which are then re-lengthened during the footstrike before snapping back and re-shortening. If anything preloads them for that it should be the plantar flexion.
I think the real reasons it works, which it does work, is to shorten the lever arm of the lower leg allowing for higher cadence, and to allow the upper gastrocnemius to contribute to flexion at the knee.
The gastro is biarticulate, crossing both knee and ankle. Muscles apply more force when longer, so when biarticulate muscles flex at one joint, they typically extend at the other joint to compensate and maintain power.
When the recovering leg swings forward and extends before striking the ground, that lengthens the upper gastrocnemius, freeing up the lower part to contract again. Likewise with the hamstrings, which simultaneously extend at the knee and contract at the hip, while the rectus femoris extends at the hip and contracts at the knee. Overall these muscles kind of oscillate like a wave in a slinky.
thejeff wrote:
Just kinda playing around this morning. When I flex my feet (as opposed to "pointing" my toes), it feels like there is almost no effort by my calves. It occurred to me that that would be one less place for me to cramp during a marathon if I can work my calves less. (FWIW, I still had a solid midfoot strike; my foot strike is not out in front of me when I do this.)
Is this a thing?
Dorsiflexion just before footsrike? If you are delaying your footsrike by a tiny amount, maybe 1/100th of a second or so and then getting more range of movement in the foot before push off, then you will be using your feet mucles and tendons and your calf muscles and achilles tendon more, not less.
Yes it is a more powerful technique which, with practise is more energy efficient. But it take a lot of practise, I mean thousands of miles before you can use it effectively in a marathon.
Maybe next year?
thejeff wrote:
please don't coach wrote:You love to talk about yourself and you mentioned that you are a clyde. That isn't hard to remember.
I also know you are a jesus freak and would kill your son if a voice told you to.
Now who is creepy?
A: The stalker
That word, I don't think it means what you think it means.
casual observations wrote:
thejeff wrote:A: The stalker
That word, I don't think it means what you think it means.
What is it about this post in particular that doesn't look stalkerish to you?
please don't coach wrote:
You love to talk about yourself and you mentioned that you are a clyde. That isn't hard to remember.
I also know you are a jesus freak and would kill your son if a voice told you to.
Now who is creepy?
I don't think you should have to force something like that. The fastest form will be what feels natural. If you aren't injured running the way you have been, then don't change anything.
I read somewhere about this several years ago. Pointing the toes up as you describe tightens the muscle running along the shin, and there was a high correlation between this action and shin splints.
For sprint events, you're also bringing your legs up higher, and that foot flexion sort of facilitates the upward motion of the leg. Distance running, you don't really need that extreme range of motion.
Jon Orange wrote:
casual observations wrote:That word, I don't think it means what you think it means.
What is it about this post in particular that doesn't look stalkerish to you?
please don't coach wrote:
You love to talk about yourself and you mentioned that you are a clyde. That isn't hard to remember.
I also know you are a jesus freak and would kill your son if a voice told you to.
Now who is creepy?
Because no effort has to be made to get this info. It is immediately picked up through just randomly reading posts on a public message board.
People on here also know Flagpole is full of himself and you are delusional about blood doping.
what?
Jon Orange wrote:
what?
This is why you struggle understanding how EPO enhances performance. Poor comprehension.