Let's be honest about trying to bring back "high-paying manufacturing jobs" to the U.S.

motivated people find a way to pay for college..

Not according to left-wing orthodoxy. They tell us that colleges are full of motivated, intelligent people who grew up in the ghetto and would still be there were it not for student loans.

"Spending money on education is never a waste", says this lib https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NJzBGNQbHwc

Your numbers are low and you underestimate the value of those careers. That kind of ignorance doesn't help young people consider that option and settle for less or aspire and fail at something they aren't qualified for and waste a lot of time and money figuring it out. Some come back to it later though and realize they should have taken that route a long time ago.

Jamin has a point. I'd tell my boss to Fk off if i was constantly monitored on how many widgts per hour i welded or fastened (you get my point). I am constantly fcking off at my desk in my office - probably 30-50% of my time.

asdfads wrote:

But how well paying are those trade jobs? Plumbers and electricians are 50k/yr jobs. And yeah I know they bill out at 100+/hr. Overhead is a bitch. People like HVAC and auto mechanics make less. And of course none of these are really manufacturing jobs. That CNC machinist is billing out at 19/hr. That isn't horrible pay by any stretch but it isn't anything to get that excited about.

Pretty much every federal or state retraining program I have seen has had horrible results with something on the order of like 10% placement in jobs. How much is the fault of the people (huge drop out rates) or the program (training without jobs is useless) is hard to say.

For $19/hr over 4 years you could easily save/invest $50,000 while the same college grad will have made NEGATIVE $50,000 and will have 0 years of work experience while the other guy has 4.

I'm working in a factory-like job. I basically stand 9.5 hours a day 4x per week and I'm constantly lifting things. It makes my body hurt. I have a back strain that doesn't go away and I can't run because of it. Would I like an office job? Yes. I've done some temping in offices and I've never become permanent. There are others here like me who have a bachelor's or higher degree. It is not easy to work here. Many quit in their first week.

Some people don't have money, time, ambition, or an idea of what to do. So for them, factory and manufacturing jobs can be a kind of safety net. I would say that this is the good thing about these jobs. All kinds of people work here. 20 year military vets, people who have degrees, people who you think could do better, but no. There are ways to advance here, but it usually requires a college degree and being a corporate-America-fit to get beyond on assistant manager. I would rather not advance here because I I wouldn't like managing at a place that is all about production and where they get anybody off the street to do the jobs.

I'm studying for a trade that is not so obvious. Many would consider the job beneath them. It was almost like luck that made me get into it. It involves some science and math. If I'm able to get into it, I'll have an upper middle class income(50k start, 90k top, 120k for supervisor), a pension (although I'll save anyway), and pretty much full job security. I might even take the time to study and switch over to the engineering side.

In some ways I wish that I had discovered this route sooner. I could have saved a lot of time. But sometimes you just have to try things. I was almost going to get a master's in accounting, but then I realized that if I got the degree I still might end up in a situation where I was temping for bad pay and getting nowhere.

Pointing Out the Obvious wrote:

Doubling down on stupid, I see. Never a good strategy (unless that's all you got).

I'd like to have a talk to your manager.

Flagpole wrote:

3) One of the biggest problems with manufacturing in India specifically is that the turnover is high. A social status thing is not how long you stay at a certain company or how high you get in that company, but how many companies you eventually work for.

We have the same problem, but with a twist, in the US. Young people don't want to learn a trade because they don't want to "join pipes" or "connect cables" for the rest of their life. You get a higher social status from having a simple desk job and frequently changing social activities. One year you do yoga, another year you cook Peruvian food, next year you "run" a marathon, and so on. Doing a good but mid-level job isn't considered a social status thing in itself any longer.

Pointing Out the Obvious wrote:

Fries with that? wrote:

Oooooooo somebody is still on grill duty!

I'll have fries too, thanks!

Doubling down on stupid, I see. Never a good strategy (unless that's all you got).

You're never going to make manager at McDs with that attitude. Back to the fryer, boy!

Pointing Out the Obvious wrote:

Fries with that? wrote:

Oooooooo somebody is still on grill duty!

I'll have fries too, thanks!

Doubling down on stupid, I see. Never a good strategy (unless that's all you got).

I'll take a double down instead of fries if you are a KFC worker.

Dora the Agoraphobiac wrote:

News for you wrote:

Manufacturing added 29,000 jobs in January.

That's nice. One month of modest growth doesn't negate a downward trend that began in the late 70s.

Browse the data at your leisure:

http://data.bls.gov/timeseries/CES3000000001

Thanks for the link. It looks like we're in a 6 year upward trend.

Holy Heck wrote:

News for you wrote:

Manufacturing added 29,000 jobs in January.

You cite one month in a discussion about long term trends?!?

Seriously?

What is it about the words "bouncing back" that you don't understand.

jamin wrote:

For $19/hr over 4 years you could easily save/invest $50,000 while the same college grad will have made NEGATIVE $50,000 and will have 0 years of work experience while the other guy has 4.

Here's a little math problem for you, jamin. Considering that the average college grad worker makes $17,500/year more than the non-college worker, how long will it be before the worth of the former surpasses that of the latter (assuming your $19/hour and -$50k figures)? Also, how much would each have earned by retirement age of 66?

A. Queerie wrote:

jamin wrote:

For $19/hr over 4 years you could easily save/invest $50,000 while the same college grad will have made NEGATIVE $50,000 and will have 0 years of work experience while the other guy has 4.

Here's a little math problem for you, jamin. Considering that the average college grad worker makes $17,500/year more than the non-college worker, how long will it be before the worth of the former surpasses that of the latter (assuming your $19/hour and -$50k figures)? Also, how much would each have earned by retirement age of 66?

Firstly, most people don't graduate college in 4 years. About half take 6 years, and many go on to even more school, not even entering the workforce until age 30. So the differences in average starting net worth would be much greater than $50,000.

Secondly, the college grad has student loans to pay, diminishing his take-home pay after he makes his monthly payment + interest.

Thirdly, $17,500 is more like $10,000-$12,000 after taxes.

Fourthly, the factoid you're quoting is based on a historical average. Historically, college grads have had more earning potential because college degrees were few in supply and because there existed more entry-level white collar jobs in the U.S. Today, college degrees are a dime a dozen and entry-level white collar jobs are done in sweatshops in the Phillipines and India. The earning difference between degree holders and non-degree holders is fast approaching zero.

Fifthly, we have to take job stability into account, and we have to count having no job as having $0.00 in income. For example, many college graduates, if they can't get a job that "uses their degree," will live in their parents' basement for years while applying for jobs they believe they deserve, or studying for certification tests that they believe will unlock those jobs. I know many people who fit this bill. Some of them have been in the post-college, pre-workforce purgatory for close to 10 years. Their income is not N/A, is $0.00/yr. Then there are the college grads who go into trendy, supposedly in-demand fields like "Bio-Informatics" and find themselves out of work soon.

By the way, I learned that the nurses at the hospital one of my parents make $90,000/yr, no 4-yr degree required (There are 2-yr community college programs that qualify one for theses jobs). And that's in a low-COL area and with hourly pay, so a higher living standard than a lawyer making $90,000 in a big city on a salary working 100 hours per week.

The we agree on all points, because I DO NOT think trade school should be free. My point was that if Bernie was going to target free college, it should be Community College/trade schools, not 4-year colleges, but even there, I wouldn't agree with it. It is pretty cheap to go to a Community College and get some learnin'.

At the epicenter... wrote:

Politically, I'll support those that at least have a vision for change that is somewhat achievable vs just throwing tax payer dollars at the wall and hoping something sticks.

Herein lies the whole problem with subsidies. The government spends too much money! Public debt is too high! Oh, wait, you want to cut my program? Oh, the humanity!

News for you wrote:

[quote]Dora the Agoraphobiac wrote:

Thanks for the link. It looks like we're in a 6 year upward trend.

An upward trend compared to when it bottomed out during the Great Recession.

In January of 1979, manufacturing employment was close to its peak at 19.4 million.

In Jan. of 2000, that number had declined to 17.3 million.

In Jan. of 2010, the recession whittled that number down to 11.5 million.

Now, roughly 7 years after the end of the recession, it's only very modestly rebounded to 12.3 million. That's still down 5 million from 2000! You can quibble all you want, the slight uptick since the recession doesn't constitute a "bounce back."

An entry level CNC machinist, plumber apprentice, electrician apprentice does not make $19/hr. It's closer to $13/hr. Let's say they make $15/hr:

$15 per hour is $31,200 per year working 40 hours per week - before taxes.

That's around $25,500 after taxes. Take away Insurance benefits @ $2500 /year and you are around $23k. Pay your rent at a super cheap rate of $500 - trying to be reasonable, as many people pay double this amount - and you are down to $17k. Now you have to pay for food - $300/month, and transportation - $150/month, which brings you down to $11,600. Then you have to pay for utilities / internet - I'll skip TV for fun - which together is another $150/month - $9,400. Now, if we pretend we don't have to clothe ourselves for work or other professional events, pay for maintenance on the vehicle we own - God forbid the thing need brakes, tires, struts, or blow a head gasket - and live as a socially dysfunctional 20-something, then ya, we can save around $9k per year. Likely? No. Perhaps it's feasible in a terrible area (read: not vibrant) but not many of us want to live in a hole in the middle of nowhere. $12.5k/ year? No.

All meanwhile other people your age are being exposed to ideas and ways of thinking you don't have the education to comprehend. Not to mention, there are these things called internships and part-time jobs that students regularly have that help them get a reasonable full-time job upon graduation. And, if you are "smart enough" to not need college, then it's likely that you would have received grants/scholarships to pay for your education and this whole line of ridiculous logic is moot.

That's a lot of verbiage. Just wave the white flag. You got my point: the average college grad will out earn the average non-college grad by hundreds of thousands of dollars over their lifetimes.