Exercise Physiologists: High VO2max and Low Lactate Threshold

If she took three weeks off and ate a lot, what would you expect her threshold to be?

Westside wrote:

I am looking for some insight on an athlete. If anyone can help explain to me why the numbers would come out as such and what she is missing in training. I don't quite understand why her lactate levels were so high throughout our test. For frame of reference she is a sub 10:00 3000m runner and 18:00 5k cross country. She is not very anaerobically fit at the moment but is aerobically in a good spot.

Her VO2max tested very high in the lab: 70

Her lactate numbers were high even at rest and were surprisingly high during testing. Baseline she was 3.0. We did mile repeats in a step-test. The test indicated a lactate threshold of around 6:05 pace. Her lactate levels at what I would think should be comfortable for her (6:15-6:00 pace) were still in the 5-6 mmol range.

She's a 17:15-17:20 3 miler at 18:00 5K. Her lactate threshold is going to between 6:00-6:05 pace.

4 mmol is not synonymous with the Lactate Threshold (I assume you are reffering to the Lactate Threshold that corresponds to around 1 hour race pace) for everyone. Actually i would expect most people would either be above or below 4 mmol w/ 4mmol being about average.

Did you ask her how she felt at 5-6 mmol?! Maybe it was comfortable for her. If her lactate threshold is actually low then she is NOT "aerobically in a good spot."

Westside wrote:

I am looking for some insight on an athlete. If anyone can help explain to me why the numbers would come out as such and what she is missing in training. I don't quite understand why her lactate levels were so high throughout our test. For frame of reference she is a sub 10:00 3000m runner and 18:00 5k cross country. She is not very anaerobically fit at the moment but is aerobically in a good spot.

Her VO2max tested very high in the lab: 70

High vo2 combined with low LT means your runner is in speed shape, not endurance shape. Looking at the times should indicate that to you. Going from a 9:xx 3000 to a 18:00 5k is a significant drop off in endurance. She may be in really good 800/mile shape right now.

Seriously mate? wrote:

4 mmol is not synonymous with the Lactate Threshold (I assume you are reffering to the Lactate Threshold that corresponds to around 1 hour race pace) for everyone. Actually i would expect most people would either be above or below 4 mmol w/ 4mmol being about average.

Did you ask her how she felt at 5-6 mmol?! Maybe it was comfortable for her. If her lactate threshold is actually low then she is NOT "aerobically in a good spot."

That's what I'm getting at. She felt fine at 5-6 mmol but the numbers themselves seemed higher than expected and higher than most others I've tested. Especially considering her vo2max is so high. The actually threshold is not much different than I thought but what surprised me was how high her lactate was at that pace. I am accustomed to seeing around 2-4 mmol at that point instead of 6-7.

For her at the moment, aerobically she is in s good spot.

Also remember her 5k was on hills/grass not a track. For those who said 3k and 5k don't equate.

Physee wrote:

High vo2 combined with low LT means your runner is in speed shape, not endurance shape. Looking at the times should indicate that to you. Going from a 9:xx 3000 to a 18:00 5k is a significant drop off in endurance. She may be in really good 800/mile shape right now.

Actually it is quite the opposite and has nothing to do with speed versus endurance shape. He really has a runner who is better suited for shorter events. Based off of 5K time, she is supposed to have a lactate threshold pace around the 6:05 per mile pace. She can probably run 2 x 5:15-5:20 mile repeats with a large rest interval because she's a lactate machine not an aerobic beast, her best events probably lie somewhere between 400-1000m. She's probably shot from a race 3K effort. His premise is wrong, she has a high lactate threshold, but her lactate threshold pace is low compared to the Vo2max in his opinion. She's quite possibly a superstar 400/800 runner being trained as a 3K/5K runner.

This confirms everything I wrote. She's fine aerobically speaking, but her current physiology suggests she's a superstar at shorter events.

You told me that it's the opposite of what I'm saying and then you say what I said. Makes no sense.

your protocol does not elicit a true VO2peak.

lactate is a fuel, is produced at rest. often utilized

early in a protocol

anaerobic/aerobic outdated terms, frequently misused on LR

just stop using them. running is a sport about producing and

maintaining power.

your runner is likely

Hi Westside,

Whoever tested your athlete did a good job of estimating her "threshold" at 6:05 per mile pace. That's quite reasonable for a 10 flat 3000 meter runner.(I calculate 5:58 to 6:06 per mile for that caliber of runner, depending upon which method of evaluation is used to interpret the data.)

Background information:

Lactate tend to be higher for runners nearing their potential. Certainly, muscle fiber population, catecholamine levels, (such as epinephrine and norepinephrine), gender, and nutritional status (consuming more carbs in one's diet elevates blood glucose level during exercise than consuming more fats/low carbs) influence results too. Anaerobic capacity would be a factor (rate of glycolytic regeneration) too.

Given the details you provided, your runner may have been nervous - while at rest, so baseline lactate value was higher than is typically observed: typical is 1-1.5 mmol, sometimes lower. Diet may be a factor in her baseline and exercise values. She may have a high percentage of type II fibers (faster fibers), to, which would explain the high lactate threshold value (5-6 mmol).

It's not true that "threshold" is 4 mmol. That's a ballpark average. A runner possessing a high percentage of type I fibers (slow twitch) might present a "threshold" of 2.5-3.5 mmol. A 400 meter sprinter might present a "threshold" at near 6-7 mmol.

As an aside, threshold is a term that has more than one meaning. Some researchers refer to threshold as 1 mmol above baseline level, so commonly around 2 to 2.5 mmol. Other researchers refer to the 2nd "break-point" threshold as LT, or they label it as LT2. Some people in the exercise science field use maximum lactate steady state as the threshold, employing a repeated test of 20 to 30 minutes, escalating the intensity of each subsequent test over several hours or days.

My observation is that females at the 18 flat 5km performance level demonstrate a LT2 in the range of 83% to 86% of V.O2 max/peak. That's equivalent to 6:09 to 5:58 per mile. Thus, the prediction that your runner's "threshold" is 6:05 per mile what I suggest is realistic.

Regards,

Tom

When did she last eat before the test? If she had a high carb meal, that could drive up the lactate levels.

Other possibilities:

She did not get a decent warm up to stabilize her lactate levels--often at the start if a person is not warmed up the immediate use of glucose/glycogen leads to a slightly higher lactate levels, but these often come down in the first few minutes.

The early paces might have been fast. I would interested in the protocol used.

Some mentioned that 4 mmol is not lactate threshold: He is right, but 4 mmol is what is called Onset of Blood Lactate Accumulation or OBLA. Many coaches and scientists (especially in Europe) use OBLA as a proxy for lactate threshold.

luv2run wrote:

When did she last eat before the test? If she had a high carb meal, that could drive up the lactate levels.

Other possibilities:

She did not get a decent warm up to stabilize her lactate levels--often at the start if a person is not warmed up the immediate use of glucose/glycogen leads to a slightly higher lactate levels, but these often come down in the first few minutes.

The early paces might have been fast. I would interested in the protocol used.

Some mentioned that 4 mmol is not lactate threshold: He is right, but 4 mmol is what is called Onset of Blood Lactate Accumulation or OBLA. Many coaches and scientists (especially in Europe) use OBLA as a proxy for lactate threshold.

Thanks for the responses everyone. Very helpful. Trying to figure this athlete out.

She did get in a good warm up. Normal protocol. 20 minutes with drills and strides. Rested for a few minutes and then I took a baseline number.

Her diet could have been a factor. She had a gatorade in the morning of and had some pasta in the evening before. Nothing out of the ordinary though and nothing she wouldn't do preceding a workout or race. She isn't race sharp but has put in 5 55-60 mile weeks since her break from cross country so she is not in bad shape for her at all. Other than some 200s we have done nothing under 90% of vVO2 in that time frame.

I used a step test using 1600s which is pretty standard. I started at a fairly high level (maybe too fast) but I started there because of where I was expecting to find her LT. She went 6:15, 6:10, 6:06, 6:02, 5:54, 5:50. Again, she was at 3 mmol after the warm up and short rest. After a 6:15 1600 she was already at 5.0 and that held steady until it shot up to around 7 mmol at 6:01.

Also, very intriguing for those saying she seems more suited for middle-distance. She has some power but has never shown to excel in shorter events. She's never broken 60 for 400, never broken 2:16 for 800, and never broken 5:00 for 1600. In high school she did extensive interval work on very little mileage for 4 years. She excelled mostly at 3k in high school off of that interval work.

Westside wrote:

Also, very intriguing for those saying she seems more suited for middle-distance. She has some power but has never shown to excel in shorter events. She's never broken 60 for 400, never broken 2:16 for 800, and never broken 5:00 for 1600. In high school she did extensive interval work on very little mileage for 4 years. She excelled mostly at 3k in high school off of that interval work.

Not "suited" for shorter events. Trained for shorter events. If you switch her to a distance runner style of training then her vo2 to LT ratio will change.

You should get her to run some shorter races in the next couple of weeks to see what she can do.

Physee wrote:

Westside wrote:

Also, very intriguing for those saying she seems more suited for middle-distance. She has some power but has never shown to excel in shorter events. She's never broken 60 for 400, never broken 2:16 for 800, and never broken 5:00 for 1600. In high school she did extensive interval work on very little mileage for 4 years. She excelled mostly at 3k in high school off of that interval work.

Not "suited" for shorter events. Trained for shorter events. If you switch her to a distance runner style of training then her vo2 to LT ratio will change.

You should get her to run some shorter races in the next couple of weeks to see what she can do.

You haven't been reading very well. She has done almost no training for anything shorter than 3k in multiple years.

Westside wrote:

You haven't been reading very well. She has done almost no training for anything shorter than 3k in multiple years.

I've been reading perfectly well. The evidence is clear that whatever you are doing is training her for shorter distances. The name of your training is irrelevant. The effect of the training determines what kind of training it is.

Westside wrote:

. She isn't race sharp but has put in 5 55-60 mile weeks since her break from cross country so she is not in bad shape for her at all. Other than some 200s we have done nothing under 90% of vVO2 in that time frame.

After a 6:15 1600 she was already at 5.0 and that held steady until it shot up to around 7 mmol at 6:01.

She's never broken 60 for 400, never broken 2:16 for 800, and never broken 5:00 for 1600. In high school she did extensive interval work on very little mileage for 4 years. She excelled mostly at 3k in high school off of that interval work.

She has no speed, but she peaked at 2 miles off extensive interval training and little mileage.

She just did 5 times 55-60 miles with some 200's.

Were some of those previous interval performances run at a threshold level?