Frank Shorter and Galen Rupp 10,000/marathon double

Shorter was also pretty much done at the age Galen is now.

earlier transition to 'thon wrote:

Shorter was also pretty much done at the age Galen is now.

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Shorter was not a paid pro who made enough as rich-boy Rupp. Shorter was an amateur with limited resources. Rupp has access to labs and testing that even today few athletes have.

This thread was supposed to be a discussion of the feasibility/advisability etc. of the 10,000/marathon double. I pointed out a few similarities, mainly that Shorter and Rupp were/are the top-ranked U.S. athletes in the 10,000 prior to running the marathon. I don't think Rupp will run the Trials marathon, but I think it is a doable double since the 10,000 is early in the schedule and the marathon the last day similar to 1972. Shorter also had to run a qualifying heat in the 10,000, so there was even less an interval between the two.

Rupp is 29 now. Shorter was 29 in 1976 (born 1947). That year, he won the silver in Montreal. He continued to run well (although not too much in the marathon) after that. So I'd say your statement is inaccurate.

Rupp could physically do it, but he usually hasn't recovered well after an all-out championship effort 10k. Also, Rio will presumably be warm and Rupp doesn't generally do well in the heat. Even if the pace was slow until the end, I see Rupp dropping out of a marathon in warm weather.

Differences with Shorter. Unlike Rupp, Shorter was clearly better at the marathon than 10k. I believe he was #1 in the world in 1971 and one of the Munich favorites. He wasn't a 10k medal favorite and probably would never have medaled because he just didn't have the finish of pure track guys.

Re Rupp doubling. Since Rupp will be 34 at the Olympics after Rio, presumably to old to medal on the track and maybe even the marathon, he really needs to maximize his medaling chances since this could be his last realistic shot at an Olympic medal. If he medals at 10k or finishes out of the medals he could run the marathon, but he will have to run the Trials to have the option.

[quote]Les wrote:

Differences with Shorter. Unlike Rupp, Shorter was clearly better at the marathon than 10k. I believe he was #1 in the world in 1971 and one of the Munich favorites. He wasn't a 10k medal favorite and probably would never have medaled because he just didn't have the finish of pure track guys.

Shorter did run 27:58 (qualifying) and 27:51 at Munich and in 1975 ran 27:45 to rank #2 in the world that year behind Brendan Foster. He did record more wins in the marathon so you have a point. However, Viren won in Montreal with just a 27:40 so Shorter wasn't far off of that.

Bill Huntington wrote:

Of course, Rupp would probably have to pass on world indoor, something Shorter did not have to consider.

Shorter had to run qualifying heats, something that Rupp did not have to consider.

Les wrote:

Differences with Shorter. Unlike Rupp, Shorter was clearly better at the marathon than 10k. I believe he was #1 in the world in 1971 and one of the Munich favorites. He wasn't a 10k medal favorite and probably would never have medaled because he just didn't have the finish of pure track guys.

The '72 race he was never going to outkick Puttemans and Yifter along with Viren. The '76 race would have played more to his strengths in the fashion that it was run and he might have been able to win a silver if he had chosen to run it.

Steve on a cell in Brooklyn wrote:

Les wrote:

Differences with Shorter. Unlike Rupp, Shorter was clearly better at the marathon than 10k. I believe he was #1 in the world in 1971 and one of the Munich favorites. He wasn't a 10k medal favorite and probably would never have medaled because he just didn't have the finish of pure track guys.

The '72 race he was never going to outkick Puttemans and Yifter along with Viren. The '76 race would have played more to his strengths in the fashion that it was run and he might have been able to win a silver if he had chosen to run it.

Yeah, he could have medaled in that race. But being defending Olympic champion he probably saw much more to be gained by just running the marathon and possibly winning two consecutive golds than running two heats of the 10k before the marathon.

Les wrote:

Yeah, he could have medaled in that race. But being defending Olympic champion he probably saw much more to be gained by just running the marathon and possibly winning two consecutive golds than running two heats of the 10k before the marathon.

I seem to recall that he had a foot injury for a short time between the trials and OG which had him choose the marathon only. I think it was the beginnings of the same injury which would bother him for the next few years.

If Rupp did indeed run the trials and make both the US 10k and marathon teams, and then ran the Oly 10k but ultimately passed on the marathon (but after having officially declared for the Oly marathon) would the first alternate (presumably the 4th place finisher in the US marathon trials) be able to take Rupp's place?

Bill Huntington wrote:

Rupp is 29 now. Shorter was 29 in 1976 (born 1947). That year, he won the silver in Montreal. He continued to run well (although not too much in the marathon) after that. So I'd say your statement is inaccurate.

Running well isn't really cutting it. His day was over after Montreal.

Shorter's day was over after Montreal because he had his Gold and Silver (Gold of the undoped) and had other things he needed to do to make money. If he had to run better to pay for his retirement, he certainly could have cut it for a few more years.

Rupp is a pure runner and can't divide his attention at all. Rupp can't even add fatherhood without having a rough year, not that his kids aren't worth dropping his world ranking 5 spots.

&UHJI()(&kjaysdf23jh wrote:

Shorter's day was over after Montreal because he had his Gold and Silver (Gold of the undoped) and had other things he needed to do to make money. If he had to run better to pay for his retirement, he certainly could have cut it for a few more years.

Rupp is a pure runner and can't divide his attention at all. Rupp can't even add fatherhood without having a rough year, not that his kids aren't worth dropping his world ranking 5 spots.

No, he was done because his body was falling apart.

Bill Rodgers was essentially done as the best by about 1980 and he made over 600 000 in '83.

Shorter could have done that too if his body allowed it. It wouldn't.

We may want to ask why no top runner in the world does this double any more.

Gebrselassie, Tergat ...

They had achieved world records in both the 10,000 and the marathon and never tried the double.

Because the 10k comes first, with maybe a week recovery before the marathon I think he could do it. My big question is what race specific training will he compromise? Salazar and NOP are huge on how fast you can close the last 400m to snag a medal, which might be difficult to really emphasize with some marathon specific aspects.

Basically, he is gonna be under prepared for one of the two. Winning an Olympic medal is hard enough, no way can you half ass it on the international level

I don't think Rupp would have much of a problem in qualifying for the marathon and the 10k in Rio. His problem will be in doing well in either if he runs both, unless he just focuses primarily on 1 and does the second as an after-thought.

At an elite level the things one would need to focus on in order to peak in either event, 10k or marathon, are significantly different. Obviously you can be strong in both at the same time, Shorter in 1972 & 1976 or Salazar in 1982, but not be able to fully peak for either which is what is required to medal in the Olympics.

One interesting possibilities emerges though. Rupp could focus on the marathon and simply run the 10k as a fast pace maker for Mo with the outside hope that they could drop enough people that he places well. Mo takes a chance when the Kenyans or Ethiopians can gang up on him and out number him/box him in. Given he and Rupp have two of the fastest PR's, Mo could train for a strength race, figuring the Africans are going to figure out a way to kick with him or box him in at the end, or even if Bekele races the 10k with his strong kick, and then Galen goes out front and hammer it for 6-8k and spreads out the field, then all of the Africans' focus on how to out-kick Mo become mute and team NOP have out thought the competition yet again.

Add in Cam's assistance with this strategy and you could see Mo as Olympic Champ and all 3 NOP 10k guys in the top 6.