800m Base Phase (Winter) help

I'd keep the mileage low and really try to work on your speed. If you can run 16:55 for 3 miles but only ran 2:10 for 800 then I think your speed definitely needs to improve to get under 2. What sort of 400 time do you have?

Personally I'd focus on explosive lower body lifts 3x a week. Hurdle drills 3x a week (before lifting would be good). Short sprints 2-3x per week (mix of flat and hills).

I wouldn't worry too much about the mileage. Do maybe 2 easy runs per week and then 2x per week I'd do longer intervals (4000m total of 800-1000m intervals) with a minute rest between each. This is a pretty low impact workout.

You're probably going to get a lot of different responses on various parts of the spectrum. Truth be told there is no right answer, but assuming you have a pretty decent base from XC, I don't think you need to keep building that. The long interval workouts and a couple easy runs should maintain your aerobic fitness plenty for the 800. You just need to try and get faster.

Work from the outside to inside, in a manner of speaking. If you picture the physiological components on a spectrum:

Speed ... Specific Endurance ... Aerobic Capacity

Then pre-season you want to work on aerobic ability and fundamental speed development. So general aerobic work on one end and on the other short hard sprints&hill reps with full recovery. Good to do drills, also.

My best 400 is a 56. Should I do the easy runs after my lifting? And when should I do sprints? after easy runs or lifting. I'll probably do a tempo run instead of those intervals just so I'm not worn out of track workouts by the time the season comes around. Should I do plyometrics or is sprinting enough? Thanks.

Jack Stam wrote:

My best 400 is a 56. Should I do the easy runs after my lifting? And when should I do sprints? after easy runs or lifting. I'll probably do a tempo run instead of those intervals just so I'm not worn out of track workouts by the time the season comes around. Should I do plyometrics or is sprinting enough? Thanks.

I think you can work plyos into your lifting routine if you want, although I'd be a little hesitant to recommend adding them without knowing much about you. Just worried about a lot of impact between the sprinting and lifting and running. I think one option would be to NOT add in plyos and instead focus on doing some of your lifts explosively with lower weights. So on one day, for example, you are doing heavier squats at a normal tempo, and on another you are using less weight and really focusing on taking the weight down slowly and then exploding upwards (while maintaining proper form). Please, please, please make sure you are doing the lifts properly first.

I feel like the normal 7-day week cycle is constraining, but it does make things easier to keep track of, so here is a decent schedule. I used numbers instead of days, so you could start it on whatever day you feel like.

1) tempo/interval, lift

2) sprints, hurdles

3) easy run, lift

4) tempo/interval

5) sprints, hurdles, lift

6) OFF

7) easy run, strides

repeat

A couple things...first, "hurdles" means hurdle hip mobility drills. Not sure if you know what those are, but here is some dude showing some examples:

It's not the best video but you get the idea. Ideally you wanna put up 8-10 hurdles if you have that many available, and then run through each exercise 2 times. I think this is great hip flexor work, which is a muscle that is often overlooked.

Second, do NOT do the hurdles or lifts before sprinting on days when both are scheduled. You want to be fresh for the sprints. Get good and warmed up with whatever it is you do (i'd include leg swings and strides for sure), then do the sprints (with full recovery), then do the lifting and/or hurdles.

If you want to do tempo runs instead of the intervals that is totally fine. The intervals are really just trying to simulate a tempo-type effort (slightly faster pace but with a bit of a rest), which I've found works well with some MD types who suck at tempo runs, but if you prefer tempo runs then that's awesome, go for it.

Anyway, that's all just my opinion. For what it's worth, I consider myself an 800 runner and have had some pretty good success coaching MD guys in high school. However, this is a little bit different than what we normally did since we ran an indoor season with quite a few meets. Also, in retrospect I would have tweaked a couple things. So, full disclosure, I haven't ever prescribed this exact program to anyone, but if I was coaching someone who wasn't racing this winter (or myself) this is what I would do.

Looks like the most important thing for you to do is start training consistently. You ran 2:10 with no training last year, and 16:55 with very little summer training. Now it's time to see what you can do when you commit a little more.

#1 you should be running 6 days a week. Consistency is king. I've seen a lot of 800 runners who think they can get by without the mileage, but the 800 still has a huge aerobic component to it. How much mileage? It depends on what you've done in the past. Figure out how much you were running during xc, then work up to something a little higher than that. For example, if you did 30 mpw in the fall, shoot for a gradual progression up to 35-40 by the middle of winter.

I race the 800 primarily during the outdoor season, and this is the schedule I like to use during base preparation.

M- off

T- Short speed day

W- distance run

Th- EZ run

F- Longer intervals

Sat- Speed development (really short sprints)

Sun- Long run

Hill workouts are great for this time of year as well. Longer hills will build up your leg strength, and short/steep hills run fast will develop your fast-twitch capabilities.

I think the most important thing to remember about the 800 is that you need to have the capability to run a good 400 and a good 1500/mile in order to reach your potential. This winter, work on your speed and work on your endurance. Then in the spring when you get closer to racing season you put them together and develop your speed endurance.

How about weight lifting and pylos?

I think what we do is pretty similar to what others have posted. I try to focus on maintaining aerobic fitness from cross season while improving speed.

1. Long warmup, drills, short speed (usually hill sprints this time of the year)

2. Light Aerobic workout + weights

3. EZ run, strides, hurdles

4. Harder effort (varies based on the group's needs) + weights

5. EZ run, strides, hurdles

6. Long or EZ run

7. Off or EZ run

Most of my MD girls run 5-6 days a week through December and then add in another day after the holidays. Mileage is usually the same as where they were at late in the cross season. I typically don't up their mileage over the winter since they are adding in the speed component. Also, it's rare that we can actually follow this exact schedule because we're working around cold temps and snow with limited indoor facilities. If I can hit both the aerobic side and speed side around 3x each in a two week span, I consider that a success!

Jack Stam wrote:

How about weight lifting and pylos?

Just do hill workouts on a regular basis at this point. That plus longer repeats/tempos, strides of 50-100m as often as you care to do them (even after workouts), lifts every so often, and a few easier specific workouts like 10-12x200 with 200+ jog recovery should set you up just fine for in-season workouts on a track. Focus on the running, though. Weights and plyos, etc hae their place, but shouldn't be taking away from your ability to remp up mileage, as that will give you the biggest bang for your buck at your age.

In between running 1:30 for the 600 indoors and running well under 2:00 outdoors for the 8 my senior year, I had several weeks of one tempo and one 8-10x300m hill workout per week. I was also running 60 miles a week, but you seem more talented than me aerobically (took weeks of 60+ miles to get to 16:30 my senior year) so the context is a bit different. Have fun with it, and if worse comes to worse, search "summer of malmo" on here.

maybe this is hypocritical of me considering the name i'm posting under, but i really don't think now is the time to be ramping up mileage. he just finished his first season of XC, so presumably he already has a much better base than ever before. I really doubt increasing mileage will give "the biggest bang for his buck" at this point. And summer of malmo? If the kid has a specific goal of improving in the 800, a preseason cross country program is not the best answer for winter training after xc.

Also "lifts every so often" is not good advice, period. Either do it regularly or not at all, otherwise you are just going to get sore. Same with plyos.

All that said, I do think hill workouts are a good suggestion.

But really, without having all the information or seeing him run, it is all just guesswork.

Here is my winter schedule, 1:57 PR

M: Tempo and strength

T: off

W: long sprints and easy run

Th: easy run

F: cruise intervals and strength

S: easy

S: short sprints

Tempo - 3-4 miles at 1/2 marathon pace (calculate from mcmillans or wherever and then add 10-15 sec per mile because I have bad endurance), or 6-7 miles at marathon pace (same deal for figuring out pace)

Cruise intervals - 3.5-4 miles of 400-800m intervals at 5k pace or 4-5 miles of 800-1200m intervals at 10k pace. I usually rest 30 sec for every 400m the interval was. So for a 400 I rest 30" between reps, 1:00 for an 800 and so on.

Short sprints - 40-75m, 200-400m total. These start on hills and after 8-10 weeks I transition to on the track.

Long sprints - 100-150m. 400-800m total. I start these on hills after 4-6 weeks of doing short hill sprints. Then after ~8 weeks of doing long hill sprints I switch them to the track.

Overall Mileage - I run 50 mpw and then every 3-5 weeks I take a down week where I keep the workout intensity up but drop to 40 mpw.

Strength - I have two strength workouts I do every week.

1. warmup, stretch, foam roll etc.

Power clean - 3x3 warmup sets then 3x3 work sets

Squat - 2x5 warmup sets then 2x5 work sets

2x10 of a hamstring of glute exercise (bridges, swiss ball rolls, romanian deadlit)

Rows - 2x15

Pushups - 1 set to failure

Abs

2. warmup, stretch, foam roll etc.

Deadlift - 2x5 warmup sets, 2x5 work sets

Squat - 2x5 warmup sets, 2x5 work sets

Lunges or split squat - 2x10

Rows - 2x15

Pushups - 1 set to failure

Abs

I wouldn't start doing something like this though. Take 2-3 months learning how to do the lifts with good form before you try to do heavy weights.

Good luck.

In high school I went from 2:21 as a freshman to 2:02 as a sophomore so big drops are definitely possible (I bet this was more puberty than training but still, you can make big improvements).

Jack Stamm:

#1 thing is you must avoid listening to guys like morethan1waytoskinacat.

I like your plan as you have laid out but be careful in the weight room. Take it from a former weight training coach and miler, you can ruin yourself in the weight room.

Remember that the 800 is 50% aerobic, and your ability will be determined by your development in this area. From what you have said, you have many, many years to go in maximizing your aerobic capacity. As a young person, you may not be able to get much faster. Think about this!

I hesitate to comment further because I do not know all of your variables. Read about good coaches such as Arthur Lydiard, Joe Newton, Joe Vigil, Dave Smith, Hal Higdon, Bill Dellinger, etc.

As a former CC and T & F coach I know you cannot go wrong by running lots of over distance. Do a little speed all along the way. Weight training is good, but not as important as the running.

Jed Clampett wrote:

Jack Stamm:

#1 thing is you must avoid listening to guys like morethan1waytoskinacat.

As a former CC and T & F coach I know you cannot go wrong by running lots of over distance. Do a little speed all along the way. Weight training is good, but not as important as the running.

Except that an 800m runner can 100% burn themselves out by running to much over distance. You also don't need aerobic training to run week at 800. Every school has the 400m runner who can run a good 4x800 leg, having never run more than 2 miles in there life. Sure some more aerobic training would make then better at the 800 but you are kidding yourself to think that they should be running 100 mpw.

(insert over done lydiard disciple response here)

Thanks for the shoutout...

First, I never suggested the weight room was more important than running. What I said, repeatedly, is that he doesn't need to increase his mileage this time of year, especially coming off his first season of XC. If you notice, there is more running than lifting in the plan I suggested.

Second, the idea that you can't increase speed at a young age is just flat out wrong. If anything, developing speed is more important than endurance as a teenager. runners PR'ing in their 30s and later aren't doing it because their turnover is improving.

Tempo runs, sprints and lifting... I'm not why that is so controversial to you.

I don't disagree with much stated. I hesitate recommending specific training without knowing how one tolerates various training. I may assume your high school team may need you to race 1600m also. To maximize one's 800, 400 speed is more important than 1500 or 1600. Does your coach want you to be a 400/800 guy or a 800/1600 guy?

Why the 800m? And now 1500/mile? With 1655 5k and only 56 400m speed you're really going to have a difficult time getting under 2 min due to your lack of speed reserve.

Not trying to burst your bubble but you do need at least 53/54 speed to break 2min and your 5k time could make you a great miler.