New York State Qualifying Process

You got it right but it's not different than NJ that has the Group Meet (state championship) and then the Meet of Champs. Same as the NY Class Meet and Federation meet.

The state meet has 4 races. 1 for each class. To qualify for the federation meet you have to be on one of the top 3 teams in your race or one of the top 20 individuals not on those teams in your race. No one actually cares about the federation meet. The real state meet is the meet before. I'm pretty sure every other state separates the classes for each state meet race. Explain how it's dumb or confusing?

denzel_vilsaint wrote:

The state meet has 4 races. 1 for each class. To qualify for the federation meet you have to be on one of the top 3 teams in your race or one of the top 20 individuals not on those teams in your race. No one actually cares about the federation meet. The real state meet is the meet before. I'm pretty sure every other state separates the classes for each state meet race. Explain how it's dumb or confusing?

Yeah... That's not right at all. It's actually the top 11-12 in the overall states merge, then then 4 or 6 private schools (I forget the exact number), and then any other teams the race organizers think should be a part of the meet, who may not have competed at states due to sectional competition. The individuals who are invited are the ones who have speed rating in the upper 170's (NY is far to reliant on speed ratings) or placed well at states. It's a relatively arbitrary decision as to who makes it. Not that anyone really cares to make it anymore.

What I said is right but you're right that other teams and individuals are invited but you're automatically invited if you're on one of your classes top 3 teams and top 20 individuals. I know because I'm from New York. Speed ratings are the most accurate way to predict who wins a race. Based on speed ratings fm was predicted to win nxn and they did

denzel_vilsaint wrote:

No one actually cares about the federation meet.

Marc Bloom, (former?) editor of The Harrier, cared hugely about the Federation meet. As he saw it, the state meet should be the championship for the whole state--which was the Federation meet (sort of). And for a time the Fed meet did carry a lot of importance.

Still, there were plenty of coaches and athletes who considered "State" to be the Intersectional meet for their class. I know of a coach who won multiple Intersectional titles (this was before the national meets attained such prominence) and declined to enter his team in the Federation meet. As far as he and they were concerned, his guys had won State--season over.

The one-team-to-Intersectionals thing has bothered lots of people over the years. There've been plenty of times when one of the state's top five teams (in its class) didn't go, because it didn't win its sectional race.

A Team that participates in the NYSPHSAA State Meet and finishes as one of the top 5 teams in the Merged Results will automatically advance to the Federation Meet. If any of these five teams fail to accept the advancement, the committee cannot automatically accept the 6th spot.

The Winning Team from each Class at the NYSPHSAA State Meet will automatically advance to the Federation Meet if they finish between 6th or 10th place.

At-large bids are considered at this point. The remaining ranked teams from the NYSPHSAA State Meet are compared to the Top Teams from the At-Large Ranking that was voted on at Friday’s meeting (teams not qualified for the NYSPHSAA State Meet). The top remaoning team from the NYSPHSAA State Meet merge and the top remaining team from the At-Large Ranking are compared. A majority vote of the 11 Sectional Coordinators is then taken to determine which of the two teams advances to the Federation Meet. This process continues until a total of 16 teams have been selected to the Federation Meet.

Individual Selection Process: After all the teams have been removed from the merge of the NYSPHSAA State Meet the first 18 individuals will advance to the Federation meet. After these individuals are selected, each Section Coordinator selects two additional individuals from their respective section by their own selection process.

Also, keep in mind that while the federation meet is a second state meet for public schools it is the only state meet for catholic and city schools.

For public high schools, the NYSPHSAA meet is - in their mind- the State Championship. In the federation meet, NYC , catholic and private school teams are almost always inferior and you rarely see a public school team in the bottom 8 of that meet. You factor in that FM and some other schools skip the federation meet for NXN, and you have a state championship meet that doesn't mean much to the public schools. Usually, the meet is good teams that didn't make it to the NYSPHSAA meet due to their stupid rules and Saratoga, that wants to be state champion even though they can't beat FM.

Though commonly referred to as 'cities', the intersectional CHSAA meet is the state championship for catholic schools.

this thread makes my head spin

Why was the Federation meet ever created? When I ran we had XX# of regionals based on geography which had classes A-D running independent of each other. A's together, B's together, and so on.

Top X# teams in each class from each region went to states. Each class had a "State champ." Class A Champ, Class B champ, and so on. That was it. You could have run Kinney / Foot Locker Nat'ls somehow after that, but we stunk so I never bothered to investigate how.

All that said, it sounds like the Federation meet in NY is an extra meet, but for what reason other than to give the teams another race?

Old D2 Guy wrote:

Why was the Federation meet ever created? When I ran we had XX# of regionals based on geography which had classes A-D running independent of each other. A's together, B's together, and so on.

Top X# teams in each class from each region went to states. Each class had a "State champ." Class A Champ, Class B champ, and so on. That was it. You could have run Kinney / Foot Locker Nat'ls somehow after that, but we stunk so I never bothered to investigate how.

All that said, it sounds like the Federation meet in NY is an extra meet, but for what reason other than to give the teams another race?

it was to create a single champ, right? you'd have teams from catholic, private, public of all sizes - meet of champions thing.

but nxn killed it, is my understanding.

Qualifying for the Federation meet for a Catholic school is way easier than from a public school. Top 5 teams at Intersectionals, or "Cities" as we say, and top 12 individuals not on those top teams make it. Pretty simple.

What about St Anthony's and Chaminade?

denzel_vilsaint wrote:

The state meet has 4 races. 1 for each class. To qualify for the federation meet you have to be on one of the top 3 teams in your race or one of the top 20 individuals not on those teams in your race. No one actually cares about the federation meet. The real state meet is the meet before. I'm pretty sure every other state separates the classes for each state meet race. Explain how it's dumb or confusing?

Not true that no one cares about the Federation Meet. Even with FM and/or another top team choosing to skip it to rest for regionals, it's still a much better race than the Class Meet erroneously named the State Championships. Any team that wins a 9-11 team race is not a state champion. They are a class champion. Feds is a true indicator of head to head talent in the state because 95% of the top teams and individuals are going head to head. It is a great xc race. You need to be in peak form and really tough to succeed as a team or individual in this race. To say that no one cares is total bs and says more about your lack of success in this meet then anything else. Anyone who's been involved in the race or just been a spectator wouldn't be so flip about this great meet. Because 1 or 2 teams don't run it, it is somehow a crappy meet now? If Stanford didn't show up for NCAAs, would you say that no one cares about the meet now?

You act like every other state has their own Feds race when they don't and how are you going to compare a college national championship to a high school race for only New Yorkers. Wouldn't you rather focus on bigger meets?

Denzel - you're a young guy with a lot of running to do. I'm sure if and when you qualify for a meet like the Feds, you'll be thrilled. Once you experience it, you'll realize what I'm talking about.

If I still lived in New York I wouldn't go to Feds unless my team wanted me to. My old teammate Kobie lane actually broke his hip at the Feds meet. I would skip it so I don't risk injury. That's probably what fm thinks too. Do you think Kobie lane would go back in the past and choose not to race there? The answer is yes

Back in the day, it was a great meet but now it is just a dinosaur. Every paper in the state on Sunday is going to declare that the winners at Monroe-Woodbury Saturday are state champions. No doubt it is a good meet, but after States, the best teams and individuals are looking towards NXN, so it has lost its luster. It's probably true a big reason is F-M skips it, but you have to say to yourself, if it isn't worth them running, it isn't really a state championship. As I said, most of the non-NYSPHSAA teams racing are inferior, rarely do the smaller class state champion teams get to run, and the bid system also gives a fair number of invites to teams that aren't good enough to make the NYSPHSAA race, so its not the gem it once was.