UTEP - 6 total guys on their roster - all from Kenya. Iona - about 13 internationals EKU - about 11 internationals - just to name a few. NJCAA implemented sweeping changes a few years back and I am curious how those coaches and fans feel about its impact? Curious what ya'll think about the issue as well?
Look at UTEP's 1981 team that was composed of world class Africans. Today the foreign athletes come run in US colleges before they go pro or to the Olympics. Back in the early 80's the foreign athletes ran in US colleges after they ran or even medalled in the Olympics. For example, Suleiman Nyambui, had won a silver medal in 1980 in Moscow in the 5k before the ''81 season. It is way less competitive today!
xcfandog wrote:
UTEP - 6 total guys on their roster - all from Kenya. Iona - about 13 internationals EKU - about 11 internationals - just to name a few. NJCAA implemented sweeping changes a few years back and I am curious how those coaches and fans feel about its impact? Curious what ya'll think about the issue as well?
I'd like to see a rule whereby no more than 2 of your 7 runners are Int'l (not american citizens).
Greater than 50% of your scorers should be citizens. Still leaves room for international athletes.
I have no problem with giving talented foreigners scholarships, whether they're academic or athletic. But, seeing 3, 4, 5 or more international athletes on these teams is wrong.
Look at it this way. If you were watching March Madness and Iona was beating Kentucky because they had 8 international men (who, by the way, are 1 - 2 years older than their competition), would that feel right? Not to me.
UTEP, Iona, Louisville, Villanova, etc. are playing within the rules, but it ain't right...
No way. The fewer limits placed on the NCAA and the schools, the better for the schools and NCAA.
Next thing you know they'll declare NCAA ballsports players professional athletes requiring a wage.
I thought America was about open and honest competition. You are not doing American distance running any favours by making the competition easier or less rigourous. At the Olympics do they have an American only race? The answer is simple; run faster, jump higher, throw farther. Compete.
Agreed. As long as they are in college they should be able to compete. Why does it really matter if the NCAA champion isn't American? If doesn't harm you or me. In the real world outside of college you compete with internationals for jobs, women, etc. It is just part of life. Only one person or team can win a given race. If you win, great. If you don't it shouldn't matter as long as you trained and gave it your best effort. That is the true point of sport.
The NCAA is an organization of schools located in the US, not an organization for students from the US. If you attend an NCAA school, you should be allowed to compete in NCAA sports (assuming that any non-origin related eligibility requirements are met).
Anyway, national origin is a protected class. Not sure what the NJCAA changes have entailed, but I can't imagine that an outright limit on athletes on the basis of origin would be legal.
Look at it this way. If you were watching March Madness and Iona was beating Kentucky because they had 8 international men (who, by the way, are 1 - 2 years older than their competition), would that feel right? Not to me.
UTEP, Iona, Louisville, Villanova, etc. are playing within the rules, but it ain't right...[/quote]
You clearly don't actually know anything about the Iona team if you think they're older than everyone else so go home and actually get an opinion not based on hate and xenophobia by doing some genuine research. The two oldest people on the Iona team yesterday happened to be American. Huh, how could that be?
I have no problem with schools recruiting as many internationals as they want to. The problem lies in the age of those competing in the NCAA. I think Kenyans age cheat in the NCAA system. That is the major problem now you have 18 year old kids competing against guys who could be 25+ as freshman. I don't think they all age cheat but definitely think a steady stream of age cheaters come here and run in the NCAA. Some of those guys go on to do nothing but for those that take running seriously it is a big advantage. The question to ask is could the NCAA do a better job of preventing that from happening. I think probably not even if they focused on that. Lots of American kids are getting some of the best competition they will ever face in the NCAA system. Ultimately better competition can be a good thing for developing athletes to compete on the world stage.
runfastrunfar wrote:
I thought America was about open and honest competition. You are not doing American distance running any favours by making the competition easier or less rigourous. At the Olympics do they have an American only race? The answer is simple; run faster, jump higher, throw farther. Compete.
So why does England limit English Premier League teams to two foreigners????
Why are no Americans on athletic scholarship at University of East Anglia?
messi wrote:
runfastrunfar wrote:I thought America was about open and honest competition. You are not doing American distance running any favours by making the competition easier or less rigourous. At the Olympics do they have an American only race? The answer is simple; run faster, jump higher, throw farther. Compete.
So why does England limit English Premier League teams to two foreigners????
Why are no Americans on athletic scholarship at University of East Anglia?
English Premier League does not limit teams to just two foreigners go home you're drunk. They are going to make it tougher so that not as many can play in the league forcing teams to develop more of the talent in the country. If I am wrong please post a link backing you told us.
For the record, NJCAA got rid of international restrictions this year. Foreign governing bodies threatened to sue and the NJCAA conceded.
They use to have a roster limit of two for xc and five for track.
I had the pleasure of running for John McDonnell, and winning a triple crown. Our roster had quite a few internationals- mostly Ireland, England, and Canada. I can assure you that these guys only made me better. I would not have won an NCAA Championship without them pushing me to be better every day. That's the sincere truth.
It's not about diluting the competition, it's about offering opportunity to citizens of the country in which the league exists. Who, by the way, are often the ones paying the bill via taxes so that the majority of these schools can even exist.
The MLS has restrictions, why can't the NCAA?
So, kind of an athletic affirmative action, huh? Yeah, that works reeeeeeal well.
Well, why does the MLS do it? Would that apply to the NCAA?
That is an awful comparison. The MLS is our PROFESSIONAL development league, and the current rule means that there would have to be at minimum 60 "domestic" players starting for MLS teams. When there are less than 100 Americans competing in NCAA track maybe it will be necessary.
othersider wrote:
It's not about diluting the competition, it's about offering opportunity to citizens of the country in which the league exists. Who, by the way, are often the ones paying the bill via taxes so that the majority of these schools can even exist.
Completely irrelevant to NCAA rules. If a state wants to require colleges to offer a certain number of spots to domestic students as a condition of state funding, that's a political discussion to be held between the state and the schools. But based on your argument, I don't know why states would limit foreigners specifically as opposed to limiting all out of state athletes (If PA is funding a school and doesn't want to fund athletes whose families don't pay taxes toward its collegiate system, it shouldn't care whether the prospective athlete is from Kenya or Ohio).
Anyway, the point of collegiate athletics isn't to "offer opportunity to the citizens of the country in which the league exists." The purpose collegiate athletics is to offer opportunities to students of US colleges.
historical precedent wrote:
Look at UTEP's 1981 team that was composed of world class Africans. Today the foreign athletes come run in US colleges before they go pro or to the Olympics. Back in the early 80's the foreign athletes ran in US colleges after they ran or even medalled in the Olympics. For example, Suleiman Nyambui, had won a silver medal in 1980 in Moscow in the 5k before the ''81 season. It is way less competitive today!
Yes, I ran against that UTEP team. Very intimidating to face Nyambui, Musyoki, and other Kenyans in their mid-20s who were Olympians and world class runners when I was an 18-year-old freshman. They were men against boys. I wrote about this in my book, Running: A Long Distance Love Affair. That chapter is titled "Crash and Burn."
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00LKUQQJI?*Version*=1&*entries*=0
You can get my book for free on Amazon for just a couple more days. Here's an excerpt:
Crash And Burn
As I reach the four-mile mark, the leaders pass me going the other way. Today’s Western Athletic Conference (WAC) Cross Country Championship is on a large golf course in Idaho, and during the race we have to double back multiple times to cover the full 10,000 meters. The first runner I see go by in the opposite direction is 27-year-old Suleiman Nyambui of Tanzania, running for UTEP. Several months ago, Nyambui won a silver medal in the 5,000 meters at the 1980 Moscow Olympics, which were unfortunately boycotted by the United States. Not far behind Nyambui are several of his teammates, from Kenya. I think the second runner is 24-year-old Michael Musyoki, who recently finished second at the Commonwealth Games to the greatest of all Kenyan distance runners, multiple world record holder Henry Rono. Most of the other front runners in the race are also Africans.
As the lead Africans fly by in the opposite direction, I hear one of them say something to another in Swahili. The fact that they're talking during a fast race is intimidating. Before the race even started, I was in awe of the Africans. I couldn't help but stare at them on the starting line. They run as I only dream of running, their long, lean legs propelling them smoothly over rough ground, their ebony faces focused and tranquil during an all-out effort as if they were simply sitting and meditating under a blue African sky. I love watching them run. They are truly magnificent. But now, to be in a race with them, to even presume to be their competitor, suddenly seems ludicrous.
At the same time I admire the Africans, I resent them. Because of them and the American universities that recruit them, there are American runners sitting at home today without scholarships. While I certainly don't blame the African runners for jumping at their opportunities in America, I despise the universities that recruit them. Because of their participation, today's race is a farce. Not only are the Africans the most talented distance runners in the world, but they are often significantly older than the average American college runner. While the average American runner enters college at the age of 17 or 18, finishing four years of athletic eligibility by the age of 21 or 22, many of the African runners recruited by American universities begin their own collegiate running career in their early or even mid-twenties, prime years for a distance runner. The best example: in 1978, when he set all four of his world records, the great Henry Rono was 26 years old and on an athletic scholarship at Washington State University. Like Nyambui and Musyoki, he was literally a man among boys.
What makes me resent the Africans even more is that, while they are fed, sheltered, educated, and honed to a fine racing edge in American collegiate competition, when it comes time for the Olympic Games they will sweep the distance events and take their medals and glory home to Africa.
I actually ran with the Africans for the first mile. They were all around me when a timer called out “Four-thirty-nine, four-forty,†as I passed the one mile marker. But I was just a boy among men, because after that first mile I had to slow down, while they just kept going and pulled away. I don't know what got into me today. I know better than that.
I'm really dying now. And I'm so congested that I cough, hack and spit every hundred yards or so. Gradually, I'm passed by every one of my teammates. Glancing over my shoulder as I struggle through the last half mile, I see only a handful of runners behind me and realize I'll have to push even harder just to hold this pitiful position.
At last I stumble across the finish line, searching the crowd for Coach Jones and my teammates. I walk toward them through the fog of my fatigue. I am ashamed. I feel worthless. I'm on a four-year athletic scholarship, and today I finished last on my team. What's more, I ran a stupid race. If I were a dog, I'd be walking with my tail between my legs right now.
This is the last NCAA race I’ll ever run.
Nice plug.
Anyway, just the thought of this thread title proves to me that we need to double, if not triple-down on our investment in education. It wasn't that long ago that there were limits like this based on race. Why on earth would we want to go back to that same, terrible, discriminatory logic that denies opportunity (in and out of the classroom) to so many.