Americans Matt Llano (2:12:28) and Hilary Dionne (2:34:45) finish in top 20 in Berlin

The other American men we mentioned in our preview didn’t fare as well as Llano. 2:12-man Shadrack Biwott dropped out sometime between 30K and 35K and Gabe Proctor failed to improve on his 2:13:45 PR from Chicago last year as he ran 2:15:54. Sean Quigley was on the start lists, but doesn’t appear in results so we assume he never started.

On the women’s side, 30-year-old Hilary Dionne was the top American, running 2:34:45 for 19th place. This was a small improvement on her 2:35:08 PB from the 2014 Boston Marathon. American-born Columbia University grad (now running for Croatia) Lisa Nemec was also racing and placed 7th in 2:27:57.

Good job to those Ivy ladies (Dionne is a Dartmouth alum)

Awesome PR' s for both of them! They did a great job running tough races and representing the US in this major. Best of luck recovering and getting their feet under them for the Trials in February. With any luck, they'll turn some more heads in LA!

We need to send out marathoners packing to stay in Japan for awhile because it isn't a lack of talent, it is piss poor training for the marathon that is the reason our marathoners are terrible (men especially).

Meb is basically a LOCK at 42??? Years of age to make the team, I think this says more about the lack of quality marathoners we have rather then his amazing longevity.

It isn't a lack of talent either, because we have plenty of talent, it's the training.

Over complicated marathon workouts I see posted day in and day out, Matt Llano 20 miles alternating 1 mile @ marathon pace 1 mile @ 6:00? WTF??? 10 miles at marathon pace? seriously JOKE! World Class 1500m runners can run 10 miles @ marathon pace! He talks about 2:09... NOT gonna happen with those workouts.

The fact that he can run 61:xx for Half indicates his training is not good for the marathon, and it goes for all of them, they focus on all the wrong things.

How do the Japanese manage to get more guys each year under 2:10 then we have had all time?

Japanese have MUCH higher volume overall

Higher Volume workouts

Bigger modulation

More long fast continuous runs

No offense is meant by this, these guys obviously work very hard and are surely dedicated, however there is a wide spread problem with western marathoners..... Lack of volume + over complicated unless workouts

Highlighting American runners is one thing -- your readership base is mostly American. Or a list of Germans. Sure the race is in Germany. Making a list of non-African runners? What the hell are you doing?

Absolute truth Llano trans like an idiot. he need a complete different training philosophy. Keep it simple 2hr 30 min long runs 3 times per month.. Short hill workouts or intervals early in week and longer tempos etc wednesday .

Its not rocket science. Sam goes for nearly all american marathoners. Tons of very good half marathoners. Very few decent marathons

Ok as you know everything go run a 2 hour 9 marathon

So you need to have had run a certain time to A) coach someone to at least that time? Or B) be able to look at statistic and comment?

Look at he depth of Japananese marathon, every year they put almost more under 2:10 then the U.S. Has ALL TIME!

Something is off with our marathon training and approach.

8 and a half minutes behind.... First American!

Although they don't all agree with each other on details, the peanut gallery seems to say USA is a joke at this discipline. No truer sentiment has ever been put forth on this board.

Llano, especially, is comicle. Look at his training logs (which he proudly posts for all to see). If that was my last month or two's training, I wouldn't think anything under 2:10 is even worth mentioning. Yet mention, hint, and brag he does. To his credit, his is finally within 5 minutes of what his debut was supposed to be. At least his PR is no longer 10 minutes off what he allegedly can run.

I actually agree with some of the above posters in that the training popular in this part of the world. Llano does workouts seemingly designed for 5km or maybe 10. And even those don't look incredibly hard. Say what you you will about Ryan Hall and his relationship with Haysoos, but at his prime he was actually competitive with the best in the world, or at least in the same league. One could say the same about Shorter or whoever you like from the dark ages, but Hall had to be 5+ min faster to be competitive at big events than those guys a couple generations earlier.

Today's top American would be close to competitive when Shorter ran, but not when Salazar did. When will this embarrasement end?

I wouldn't say it's an embarrassment. At all. I think the Americans are up against extremely talented individuals. At the top levels, they're all individuals. Sure, a great program and training will produce stong outliers like Kipchoge, Kipsang, etc. But shoot, that's like striking gold for a program. The number of medals at OC and world majors for the US (counting Meb and Deena) is NOT disproportionately bad. Why isn't anyone anyone else talking about the state of their marathoners?

Matt Llano was not exactly on par with Ryan Hall, Dathan Ritzenhein, and Matt Tegenkamp on the level of top American prospects to go sub 2:10, yet he has run 61 (along with quite a few other Americans) and now 2:12, which is not shabby at all. Some of those other 61 minute guys should be able to break 2:10 at some point. But I'd agree that alternating 1M at MP, 1M at 6:00, isn't exactly the ideal workout to build the long endurance for breaking 2:10 and I don't think that is what the Japanese or East Africans are doing.

There is no American training model (just like there is not Kenyan, Ethiopian; Japanese have a competition model that shapes there training...) but it is common to see American attitudes shape American's training.

Fear of burnout generally keeps athlete's mileage low, and similarly, workout volume low. Look at the attitude on here, and see how often someone asking about harder training is countered with some sort of burnout comment.

Also, the idea that you can turn into a marathoner by adding longer runs is a problematic myth. Half marathon workouts and high milage aren't enough for the marathon, just like 400m training with some mileage won't make you a good 800m runner. (Again, I'm talking generally. Exceptions exist).

I'm glad Llano has a respectable PR now, but the reason he thought he could run 2:09 is for the exact reasons above. His key workouts weren't marathon specific, and 7 weeks above 110 (only two above 130) isn't enough volume.

helneeded wrote:

Absolute truth Llano trans like an idiot. he need a complete different training philosophy. Keep it simple 2hr 30 min long runs 3 times per month.. Short hill workouts or intervals early in week and longer tempos etc wednesday .

Its not rocket science. Sam goes for nearly all american marathoners. Tons of very good half marathoners. Very few decent marathons

I tried to check out his training log but it was painful to read. Does anyone have a condensed version without the extraneous verbiage?

I don't see Japan lighting up the world in the Marathon these days. Look back to DeCastella 8x400m for his bread and butter track workout. Jonesy running 90 miles a week. I don't see lots of volume in their hard days. Lots of different ways to reach the top.

I deleted any sentence that wasn't a number. Some workouts he didn't give any paces. Some workout days he didn't even say what it was.

What do you think Malmo?

Week of September 21 to September 27

Monday: 8 miles.

Tuesday: 11 mile 2 x 3 mile Workout.Hit 2 x 3 miles in 14:51 and 14:48,

Wednesday: 7 miles.

Thursday:

Friday:

Saturday:

Sunday:

Total Mileage:

Week of September 14 to September 20

Monday: AM 8 miles. PM 4.25 miles.

Tuesday: AM 10.1 miles.

Wednesday: AM 8 miles. PM 4.3 miles. Fairmount Loop plus a little.

Thursday: AM 12.8 mile 10 x 800m. Ben and I decided to alter this workout slightly from a 6 mile fartlek (2 min hard, 1 min easy) and instead I ran it as 10x800m on the track. I wanted a little something to feel fast and smooth, and I think this did just the trick. The 800s were fairly comfortable, and I hit most of them right around 2:19 (the goal was 2:20 with 200m jog recovery). Left inside hip tightened up a bit after the run.

Friday: AM 10 miles.

Saturday: AM 4.3 miles. Fairmount Loop. | PM 4.4 miles. Fairmount Loop.

Sunday: AM 14 miles.

Total Mileage: 80 miles

Week of September 7 to September 13

Monday: AM 6.5 miles.PM 4.3 miles.

Tuesday: AM 11.1 miles. PM 4.2 miles.

Wednesday: AM 20 x 200m Workout at Duniway Park. 20 x 200m at the public track at Duniway Park in Portland. PM 4.2 miles.

Thursday: AM 8 miles. PM 6.1 miles.

Friday: AM 10 miles. PM 4.3 miles.

Saturday: AM 8 miles. added in a few 1 minute on, 2 minutes off segments to kind of test the hip a little PM 4 miles.

Sunday: AM 18 mile 2 x 6 mile workout at 4:50 (that was the goal for each 6 miler). I tried to keep it as close to 4:49-4:50 as I could, only a couple of times seeing anything above 4:50.xx. When I did, I thought about good running form an inserted a 20 to 30 second burst of speed to get myself back on pace, and was usually able to maintain that from that point on (maybe until I got tired again or mentally lost focus, at which point I’d do it again).

Total Mileage: 100 miles

Week of August 31 to September 6

Monday: AM 10 miles. PM 6.2 miles.

Tuesday: AM 17.7 mile 11 x 1 mile 11 x 1 mile at alternating paces (4:57/4:57/4:50/4:57/4:45/4:57/4:40/4:57/4:35/4:57/4:30). I was scheduled to have 1 minute recovery after the 4:57s and 2 minutes recovery after the faster miles.PM 4 miles.

Wednesday: AM 12 miles. PM 4 miles.

Thursday: AM 16 miles.PM 4 miles.

Friday: AM 12.1 miles. PM 4 miles.

Saturday: AM 18 mile workout.

Sunday: AM 10 miles.

Total Mileage: 118 miles

Week of August 24 to August 30

Monday: AM 13 miles. PM 4 miles.

Tuesday: AM 18.2 mile 5 x 2 Mile Workout in Camp Verde. 10:00, 9:50, 9:40, 9:30, 9:20 on a 3:15-3:30 per half mile jog recovery. PM 4 miles

Wednesday: AM 10.1 miles. PM 6 miles.

Thursday: AM 12 mile 8 x 200m workout. Hit everything in the mid 32 second range, which was just slightly under the goal of 33 | PM 4 miles.

Friday: AM 12 miles. | PM 6 miles.

Saturday: AM 22 mile Fast Finish Long Run. Ran out and back at Bellemont today for the Fast Finish Long Run. The workout today was to be run as 15 miles easy, then 5 miles at 5 minute pace or faster, and finishing with 2 miles easy (as a bit of a cool-down). According to my watch, I was somewhere around 25:02 or 25:03 for the last 5 miles, but Ben had me finishing around 24:45. PM 3 miles.

Sunday: AM 12.5 miles. PM 6 miles.

Total Mileage: 133 miles

Week of August 17 to August 23

Monday: OFF

Tuesday: AM 8.1 miles. PM 6 miles.

Wednesday: AM 8.1 miles. PM 5.75 miles.

Thursday: AM 10 miles. PM 4 miles. Road loop.

Friday: AM 8.3 miles. PM 4 miles.

Saturday: AM 24 mile Tempo/Long/Tempo Workout. Good solo workout today on Lake Mary Rd. Easy 3 mile warm-up, 4 mile tempo in 20:13 (5:04/5:04/5:01/5:04), 10 miles in 57:10 (5:43 average), 4 mile tempo in 20:32 (5:04/5:05/5:03/5:20), easy 3 mile cool-down.

Sunday: AM 10.3 miles. PM 4 miles.

Total Mileage: 93 miles

Week of August 10 to August 16

Monday: AM 13 miles. PM 4.4 miles.

Tuesday: AM 17.1 mile 3 x 3 mile Workout. GRIND. Man, it’s great when these sessions feel effortless, but I almost feel like I get more out of them when I have to grind through them like I did today.PM 4.3 miles.

Wednesday: AM 12 miles. PM 6.5 miles.

Thursday: AM 16 mile Medium Long Run. PM 3 miles.

Friday: AM 12 miles. PM 5.1 miles. Easy afternoon run on the road loop by my house, followed by 6 x 30 second strides.

Saturday: AM 26.2 mile Alternating Pace Long Run. Great workout today on Lake Mary Road with Nick Arciniaga by my side, Jason on the bike, and Jen providing fluids every 3 miles.

Sunday: AM 10.1 miles. PM 6 miles.

Total Mileage: 136 miles

Week of August 3 to August 9

Monday: AM 12.1 miles. | PM 4 miles.

Tuesday: AM 15.7 mile 25 x 400m workout. PM 5 miles.

Wednesday: AM 12.4 miles. | PM 6 miles.

Thursday: AM 12.2 mile Leg Speed Workout. PM 4 miles.

Friday: AM 12 miles. | PM 4.25 miles.

Saturday: AM 18.1 mile Marathon Effort Long Run. Felt like garbage today (stomach was in knots, heartburn, felt like I was going to throw up for a while, all right from the warm-up), so honestly I was just happy to get the workout in and hit the overall goal average of 5:12 per mile (marathon effort), despite having a few slower miles towards the end.

Sunday: AM 12.1 miles. | PM 6.5 miles.

Total Mileage: 124 miles

Week of July 27 to August 2

Monday: AM 12 miles. PM 5.3 miles.

Tuesday: AM 14.3 mile 15 x 1k workout in Camp Verde. Solid workout of 15 x 1k down in Camp Verde (3,500 ft). PM Had to scrap this run on account of my foot bothering me.

Wednesday: AM 0.9 miles. PM 9 miles. 9 miles easy on the Alter-G at 80% body weight. I started off at 60% and gradually increased it throughout the first couple miles because I couldn’t really feel my foot at all.

Thursday: AM 15.3 mile Medium Long Run.

Friday: AM 12.1 miles. Out and back on Woody Mountain, finished off with a road loop to make it 12 miles. | PM 4 miles.

Saturday: AM 22.2 mile Long Run with Surges. Easy long run with surges in the second half – well, after 10 miles.

Sunday: AM 10 miles.

Total Mileage: 111 miles

Week of July 20 to July 26

Monday: AM 12 miles. | PM 4.8 miles.

Tuesday: AM 18 mile 6 x 1.5 mile Workout. Anyway, in this workout, the goal was 7:48 per 1.5 miles and I hit 7:44, 7:44, 7:43.8, 7:44, 7:44, 7:42.8 and was pretty close to spot on with the floats as well (3:14, 3:10, 3:13, 3:14, 3:14, 3:02).

Wednesday: AM 11.1 miles. Observatory Mesa loop on my own. Not much to say about this one. | PM 6.1 miles.

Thursday: AM 12.2 mile Leg Speed Workout. | PM 4 miles.

Friday: AM 12.2 miles. S PM 4 miles.

Saturday: AM 21 mile Long Run at Bellemont. | PM 3 miles.

Sunday: AM 10 miles. 1| PM 6 miles. Schultz Pass 6 mile run.

Total Mileage: 125 miles

Week of July 13 to July 19

Monday: AM 10.1 miles. | PM 4 miles

Tuesday: AM 16 mile Fartlek workout. The workout itself was nothing too special. | PM 6 miles.

Wednesday: AM 10 miles. | PM 4 miles.

Thursday: AM 15 mile Medium Long Run.

Friday: AM 10.1 miles.

Saturday: AM 20.7 mile Long Run. Oh, man! I really wanted to finish the loop under two hours, but I didn’t really decide that until about 5 miles to go, when I was at exactly 1:35:00. I knew that finishing the last 5 miles with each mile at 5:00 was going to be a tall order considering two of the last few miles have significant uphills, but I decided to go for it anyway. I was spot on with two miles to go (I think I was 1:49:50 something, meaning I covered those three miles in 14:50), but I lost a few seconds on a big uphill in the 19th mile and lost probably another 20 seconds on a huge hill in the 20th/21st mile. Oh well – covering the loop in 2:00:30 is still pretty good.

Sunday: AM 10 miles. | PM 4.2 miles.

Total Mileage: 117 miles

helneeded wrote:

Absolute truth Llano trans like an idiot. he need a complete different training philosophy. Keep it simple 2hr 30 min long runs 3 times per month.. Short hill workouts or intervals early in week and longer tempos etc wednesday .

Its not rocket science. Sam goes for nearly all american marathoners. Tons of very good half marathoners. Very few decent marathons

Llano was a 9:50 2miler in high school and has continually gotten better every year since then. So to say that his training is completely idiotic doesn't make sense, clearly something is working.

Also, he is training at 7-10k feet of elevation. The times are obviously going to be slower than if he was at sea level.

runbetter wrote:

helneeded wrote:

Absolute truth Llano trans like an idiot. he need a complete different training philosophy. Keep it simple 2hr 30 min long runs 3 times per month.. Short hill workouts or intervals early in week and longer tempos etc wednesday .

Its not rocket science. Sam goes for nearly all american marathoners. Tons of very good half marathoners. Very few decent marathons

Llano was a 9:50 2miler in high school and has continually gotten better every year since then. So to say that his training is completely idiotic doesn't make sense, clearly something is working.

Also, he is training at 7-10k feet of elevation. The times are obviously going to be slower than if he was at sea level.

You're mistake is to look at the times. Running 3x3 Mile at 4:40 or 4:50 altitude doesn't matter, because it's not a marathon workout. 5x3 mile is. Count how many days he did marathon specific work 5:00 sea level or 5:10ish altitude. Or, because he doesn't give paces often, count how many days were 13-18 miles of work.

Very few.

Anyone can do a half marathon workout, and pretend it is their marathon pace. But until he actually does marathon workouts, he'll keep running 3 minutes slower than his goal.

[I am being hard on Llano, I know. I have no feelings about him as a runner or as a person. But his training is endemic of the American approach, which is frustrating.)

Tone wrote:

Running 3x3 Mile at 4:40 or 4:50 altitude doesn't matter, because it's not a marathon workout. 5x3 mile is.

I'm not sure who appointed you arbiter of marathon training. But, Bill Rodgers, April 2, 1975:

10 miles @ 9:30 am - OK pace, flat

5 miles @ 3:45 pm - good pace, few good hills

9 miles @ 6:30 pm - 4 x 2m @ 10:10, 1 jog

24 total

His only other sustained faster running that week was April 6:

20 miles - 14 thru 17 @ 5:20 pace, last 3 good pace

5 miles @ 6 pm - slow

25 total

.....is 4x2m not a marathon workout?

runbetter wrote:

helneeded wrote:

Absolute truth Llano trans like an idiot. he need a complete different training philosophy. Keep it simple 2hr 30 min long runs 3 times per month.. Short hill workouts or intervals early in week and longer tempos etc wednesday .

Its not rocket science. Sam goes for nearly all american marathoners. Tons of very good half marathoners. Very few decent marathons

Llano was a 9:50 2miler in high school and has continually gotten better every year since then. So to say that his training is completely idiotic doesn't make sense, clearly something is working.

Also, he is training at 7-10k feet of elevation. The times are obviously going to be slower than if he was at sea level.

Who cares what he did in high school or college. He ran a 1:01 half marathon. His marathon times don't match up and never will if he doesn't train harder and smarter.