hansons 2x6, 2 weeks before marathon

Are you elite?

Good rule of thumb is to do the exact opposite of anything hansons does.

not elite but aiming for ~2:30

I only put Hansons "elites" in there because my understanding is that this workout isn't part of their other training plans from the books etc

I personally think 2x6 is a) too hard of a workout 2 weeks out and b) not a very effective workout.

Think about it. It is essentially 12miles at half marathon pace. That's really hard at a time when you should be *needing* to recover from all or your hard training.

The workout itself is not very specific either since typically you will need 10min of rest. When would you ever run hard for 30min, take a 10min break, then run hard for 30min. The second 6mi segment turns into a race in my opinion.

Typically what I run is below:

22 days til: 3x1mi @ HMP, 3x1k @5kP, 3x400 @ 1miP, 1/4mile run interval

18 days til: 3x3mi @HMP, 1/2mi run recovery

14 days til: 14mi @MP

10 days til: 3x2mi @HMP 2min rest

7 days til: 6mi continuous tempo, 2mi@MP, 1mi@HMP, 2mi@MP, 1mi@HMP, followed by 4x200 w/ 200 jog

4 days til: 3x1mi @HMP 2min rest

Thank you! This is really helpful

ghost of Brian Sell wrote:

not elite but aiming for ~2:30

What makes you think a 2,30 runner should copy the training of elite runners?

I don't necessarily agree with the full reasoning, but bottom-line is you are right. 2x6 sounds wonky.

2x6 miles at marathon pace two weeks out is not too hard of a workout if you train reasonably hard and have some mileage under you. I believe NAZ elite also does something similar.

"What makes you think a 2,30 runner should copy the training of elite runners?"

-you need a nuclear wedgie.

SouthernFriedRealist wrote:

2x6 miles at marathon pace two weeks out is not too hard of a workout if you train reasonably hard and have some mileage under you. I believe NAZ elite also does something similar.

That's because the coach at Northern Arizona Elite is a former Hanson's guy.

And he also does his own stuff as well. I have a friend who runs the same 2x6 mile a couple weeks out because it gives you a feel for race pace/improves efficiency and with the break in between, it's not very strenuous.

I also know of guys who aren't Hansons but competitive runners but do much tougher workouts two weeks out and seem to recover well. I know of a lady who ran a half-marathon at 2:28 pace seven days out and then went on to run 2:28:00 the next week.

Everyone is different and responds differently to things. But I can't see someone being worried about 2x6 miles if they run more than 60-70 miles a week.

OK, I've never really seen those workouts strung together in this way for marathon training, especially so close to the race. what good does the 6 mile tempo a week before the race do you, confidence builder? Stay sharp? (it doesn't help your fitness on race day, that's for sure)what's your PB, so we can verify if we should listen to your advice? I want to hear more about this framework

[quote]going to the well wrote:

OK, I've never really seen those workouts strung together in this way for marathon training, especially so close to the race. what good does the 6 mile tempo a week before the race do you, confidence builder? Stay sharp? (it doesn't help your fitness on race day, that's for sure)

what's your PB, so we can verify if we should listen to your advice? I want to hear more about this framework

Great questions. I have run 2:18 and 1:05. When I began training myself under this program (which is constantly evolving) I went from having a 5k pr of 14:10 and only running 2:27 for the marathon, down to my pr for the marathon and half. This training worked for me and I have been able to perform at my peak when I want to, consistently.

The last month of training has no fitness benefits, it is all about recovering and absorbing the training from the previous 4 months. Mileage drops from 130s to 120,110, 95, 75. I like to do the six mile tempo because it is very specific to MP, gives practice at changing paces, intense enough not to feel stale, yet short enough not to increase fatigue.

I also live at altitude, so HMP at altitude equals sea level MP, so everything the last 3 weeks is at MP +/- 10s.

To add more context here are the four weeks leading up to it.

53 days: 4x5k @HMP, 1k recovery in 4min

49 days: 16mile tempo @MP

45 days: 4mi, 3mi, 2mi, 1mi @HMP 3:10 0.5mi run recovery

42 days: 3 hour long run 28miles

38 days: 3x1mi, 5x1k @ 10K pace, 105s 400 interval

34 days: 17mi varying pace tempo, 8MP,1HMP,4MP,1HMP,3MP

30 days: 10x1k @10k, w/ 400 run interval in 95s

26 days: continuous run, 3wu, 4mi HMP, 10mi MP+60s, 4mi HMP, 2mi cd

Much of this is based off of workouts from Daniels, structure of Lydiard, with a bit of intensity and frequency borrowed from Canova.

Back to the OP question. I feel like 2x6mi is a workout that just isn't effective. I have run it in the past and feel it is too draining the last 3 miles. It may have something to do with being at altitude. Still, I think the standing/ jogging rest is just too non specific for marathon stuff.

You should start coaching. That's impressive stuff. Good luck in the trials! (I'm guessing you're gonna run them due to your 65 half?)

Why would the last month of training have no fitness benefits? That makes no sense

SouthernFriedRealist wrote:

2x6 miles at marathon pace two weeks out is not too hard of a workout if you train reasonably hard and have some mileage under you. I believe NAZ elite also does something similar.

The OP said "2x6 mile (@5-10 sec faster than marathon pace)", not at marathon pace. Big difference.

To the other saying that he should not copy the training of elites, there is nothing wrong with that, him being a 2:30 guy. He only need to adjust for pace and maybe time.

bigtool05 wrote:

Why would the last month of training have no fitness benefits? That makes no sense

I will take a step back, and say there are "limited" fitness benefits the last 4 weeks. Lydiard postulated that your maximum potential level of fitness is dictated by your aerobic capacity developed during Peak mileage base phase. Once that level is set, you develop the other systems (anaerobic development and coordination) to match your developed aerobic capacity.

I firmly believe this, and understand this was confirmed by Daniels.

Under my training plan, the most difficult part of the season is from 12 weeks out to 4 weeks out. This is the highest mileage period, with the longest workouts and it introduces the fastest pace work. The remaining 4 weeks to race day, removes the vo2 max intervals, continually decreases threshold workout volume, and total mileage.

I can't reasonably say that after running 6 threshold workouts at volumes of 10-12.4 miles at HMP there will be fitness gains from running workouts at volumes of 6mi and 3mi at the exact same HMP when mileage is decreasing and energy stores are refueling.

The only reason I will say there are some fitness gains is a) improved efficiency from running the same pace with less cumulative fatigue, and b) improved mental benefits of feeling faster and more smooth.

As far as the trials, I have yet to qualify unfortunately. I have been close on several occasions but have not run sub 2:18 or sub 1:05. I am racing a half this weekend and am prepared to run the standard. The hard work is done, I just need to execute :).

2 x 6 miles was done after the 16-mile "Simulator" (like pretty soon after!). There was also an 8 mile "Tempo" run that usually got a little out of control sometimes thrown in there. The 2 x 6 was more than 2 weeks before race day though.

If you think about it, 2 x 6 miles at 10 sec a mile faster than goal marathon pace is a heck of a lot harder to run for a 2:12 marathoner compared to a 2:30 marathoner. So it's all relative. Workouts and paces don't scale in a linear fashion!

Personally I like 2 x 8km and 3 x 5km (or 3 x 3-miles) with a shorter rest than what the Hansons used to give us (We had a 1-mile easy jog that would take over 8 minutes....you can do the same workout with like a 4-5 min rest and keep it under control. For me now, the key Lactate Threshold workouts are 2-mile repeats with a short rest. As are Canova style long runs.

Really when you look at marathon training it's a matter of putting in high mileage (lots of relaxed running though) and then throwing down a lot of workouts right around Lactate Threshold (2-mile, 3-mile, 5-mile repeats and 20-40min Tempo Runs with a short to no-rest) at half marathon to 10km + 10=15 sec a mile pace. Then throwing down some Canova style 20-23 mile long runs ( weekly mileage relative) with big negative splits that can approach marathon pace (very hard) and a couple track workouts like 1km repeats and mile repeats at about 10km pace to touch on some element of Vo2max and to develop Running Economy at paces faster than marathon race pace. How you periodize that mix of workouts and regulate what a feasible "goal marathon pace" might evolve to is the name of the game.

For the critics who'll say I haven't improved in the marathon over the years, keep in mind that mixing ultra-trail-mountain races with road marathons doesn't help one's flat running speed! Also, I consider my performance at Boston this year to be a better performance than my 2:16:52 PR from 2011 while at Hansons....so a little progression over the last 5 years...