Marathon, Want 310, How to Tweak Last 7 Weeks of Pfitzinger 18/70

I followed that plan as closely as possible in 2011 and ran a 3:09 at the age of 36. My advice is to stick with the plan and to not hit the halfway point at 7:00 pace. I still managed a BQ but missed my 8 year-old PR by 2 seconds after a big positive split.

I've never followed a particular plan for marathon training other than to run the highest mileage I can handle week in and week out and to get in two harder workouts a week.

You might need to accept that 3:10:00 isn't in the cards for you this time out. Your MP runs being tough isn't a good sign. Having said that, you do have three or four weeks left in which you can do quality training before your taper begins.

If you've been following a plan to this point, stick with it. No plan is going to work very well if you bail on it the last six weeks. I'd try to get in one last MP run like your last one, 18 mile total with the last 12 at MP, three weeks before the race date. If it's still tough, consider starting the first half of the race slower 7:15 (and I mean seriously consider it).

Just keep churning out the miles and don't go crazy on any one workout to the point where you injure yourself or can't complete your easy run the next day.

Not sure if I should advise you against sticking with Pfitz, as it's a good program that has provided many solid results... if you stick with the plan. Missing / shortening / swapping workouts is not what you want to achieve a running goal, especially if you can't get by on talent and latent fitness.

If you really think you that plan so far isn't getting into the shape you you need, Owen Anderson has a 30-day program you could apply to the last 4.x weeks... but it requires you stick to its workouts, some of which require ability to have appropriate gear / space, as in a gym with a treadmill-- could be tougher to comply with that than with Pfitz 18/70. That 30-day plan:

http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/marathon-training-planning-a-30-day-running-programme-702#

Thanks for the replies.

I won't plan on going out at a 7:00 pace, that's for sure. I'm starting out with the first few miles at 7:20 or so, but will then stick to 7:15 for as long as I can. I'm definitely familiar with going out too fast and then suffering for the last 10 miles and will not make that mistake. Congrats on the BQ, by the way.

The schedule calls for a 18 miler this week with the last 14 at MP, then a half marathon tune up next week with a 17 mile run the next day. There is no specific MP workout mileage after this until race day, as this is replaced with VO2 work in the program.

I've been getting in 10-12 miles per week at MP, as I throw these miles into some of the mid week 12-15 milers if it's not called for in the weekly long run. I will probably continue to do that all the way up until the taper, so long as I don't get too fatigued by it. This is my only modification to the plan so far.

And thanks for the link, that looks fairly rigorous but seems helpful to those who could get through it.

Were you able to complete a 22-24 mile long run at 8:15-30 pace?

I was, last weekend (7/25) I got in 21 miles in 2:55, or a pace of about 8:20. The first half was closer to 8:30/8:40, and the second half was 7:50/8:00.

This is what I would do the last 7 weeks.

Monday 3 easy (yoga/core)

Tuesday 2 up 16 x 400 @ 5K pace 90 recovery 2 down.

Wednesday 3 easy (yoga/core)

Thursday 10 miles hilly

Friday 3 easy (yoga/core)

Saturday Rest

Sunday 24 easy (8:30 pace) Only water and salt tabs

Monday 3 easy (yoga/core)

Tuesday 2 up 8 x 1 mile @ 6:45's 2:00 recovery 1 down

Wednesday 3 easy (yoga/core)

Thursday 2 up 10 mile tempo @ 7:00 pace

Friday 3 easy (yoga/core)

Saturday Rest

Sunday 12 easy @ 8:00

Monday 3 easy (yoga/core)

Tuesday 2 up 24 x 200 1:00 recovery 2 down

Wednesday 3 easy (yoga/core)

Thursday 12 hilly miler

Friday 3 easy (yoga/core)

Saturday Rest

Sunday 20 (first 10 easy 8:20 pace second 10 MP)

Monday 3 easy (yoga/core)

Tuesday 2 up 6 x 1 mile @ 6:45's 2:00 recovery 2 down

Wednesday 3 easy (yoga/core)

Thursday 2 up 6 mile tempo @ 7:00 pace

Friday 3 easy (yoga/core)

Saturday Rest

Sunday 12 easy @ 8:00

Monday 3 easy (yoga/core)

Tuesday 2 up 6 x 800 @ 3:10's 2:00 recovery 2 down

Wednesday 3 easy (yoga/core)

Thursday 8 miles hilly

Friday 3 easy (yoga/core)

Saturday Rest

Sunday 18 (first 10 easy 8:15's last 8 miles at 7:15's)

Monday 3 easy (yoga/core)

Tuesday 2 up 5 miles @ 7:25 pace 1 down

Wednesday 3 easy (yoga/core)

Thursday 6 easy (8:20)

Friday 3 easy (yoga/core)

Saturday Rest

Sunday 12 easy @ 8:00

Monday 3 easy (yoga/core)

Tuesday 2 up 3 x 1 mile at 7:15's 3:00 recovery 1 down

Wednesday Rest

Thursday 5 easy (8:20)

Friday (yoga)

Saturday Rest

Sunday Sub 3:10

I've run 3:09, 3:08, 3:05, 3:03, 2:58, 2:54 off of similar training.

Some thoughts from a previous user of the plan:

-for those of us with limited marathon talent, improvements are a year over year grind but come with patience. It took me a good 5 years to work my way from 3:35 down to 3:15 and I have yet to get pacing right.

-as an addendum to the above, just because you can hit a long MP workout doesn't mean you're ready to run that pace. for me, my actual marathon pace always ends up being close to slightly slower than what I can run for a 22 mile long run. My half marathon PR is 1:27 so I lack endurance.

-lack of workouts in plan can make you feel stale. Resist the urge to run hard more than recommended but make sure you do all the mileage. I ran harder workouts with the recommended mileage several times and feel like I may have peaked early.

-not convinced pfitz is the best option. He gives options for those only willing to run up to 70 mpw but he'd prob agree that an up to 70 mpw plan will never be ideal for the marathon. Further his plan benefits slow twitchers more than fast twitchers.

Should I substitute these workouts with longer threshold runs (~7 at LT) or more work at MP, or should I continue to follow his plan?

Follow the plan as it is. Pfitz lays out his speed sessions at the end of the plan on purpose. We can argue the ifs and buts of that... If anything it helps by changing your perception of MP to being easier.

Also worth mentioning: you went from 40-50 to 18/70 plan. Even if you are planning on peaking at 65, that is more than your body is used to. It takes an experienced runner to assess fatigue, i.e., differentiate between 'good fatigue' and 'bad fatigue'.

A typical marathon benchmark workout is 20 w/ 10 @ MP. Your 18 w/12 is pretty similar. That should give you enough confidence for covering the full 26 at goal MP.

My advice - do less. You are over-eager/anxious.

Thanks again for the replies. HMA that is a pretty tough schedule, I like it though. I wouldn't have the temerity to run 18 with 10 at MP so close to the actual race but it clearly worked for you so maybe it's worth trying one of these cycles. The idea of turning the 24x200 into a long fartlek run actually sounds like fun.

And to the other poster, yes I am definitely a slow twitcher. Long slow runs are my bread and butter, but it's hard to follow the 80 easy/20 hard rule sometimes because I feel stale, like most of my runs are at slow paces. I know it's part of the process and helps avoid injury, but it's also why I want to maybe add more MP miles into the program on the weeks where MP miles are not called for in the long run. That's the main knock on Pfitzinger right? Not enough speedwork or MP miles.

That being said I'm going to end up logging over 1,000 miles over the course of the 18 week program, with about 180 at MP. Pfitzinger calls for about 140 of them and the rest is just me adding them in. Hansons has, I think, over 300 miles at MP. If I can't get to 3:10, then next time maybe I'll devise my own plan that has things I like (mid week 12-15 miler) and things I need (lots of miles at MP and LT). We'll see!

Sounds like this is the most mileage you have ever done, which means you're not getting the full benefit of 65 mpw yet, and most likely won't in this cycle.

Quick question: Have you broken 1:30 for the half?

Or can you do the Yasso 800's? (10x 800@ 3:10 each, 400 rest)

Just want to be sure 3:10 is within range now.

Also, a great fitness indicator 3 weeks to a month out is a 25-30K race.

somebloke wrote:

Also worth mentioning: you went from 40-50 to 18/70 plan. Even if you are planning on peaking at 65, that is more than your body is used to. It takes an experienced runner to assess fatigue, i.e., differentiate between 'good fatigue' and 'bad fatigue'.

.

Yes agreed. So, I've never run competitively, or in high school or college. I've got lots of experience figuring out good vs bad fatigue via running marathons/ultras (up to and including 100 milers), which helps me figure out what is a minor issue and what is an actual injury. However, I've never done it in the context of a training plan, and I am learning that half the battle is performing workouts while fatigued, yet staying healthy enough to do them. Definitely challenging.

MarathonMind wrote:

Sounds like this is the most mileage you have ever done, which means you're not getting the full benefit of 65 mpw yet, and most likely won't in this cycle.

Quick question: Have you broken 1:30 for the half?

Or can you do the Yasso 800's? (10x 800@ 3:10 each, 400 rest)

Just want to be sure 3:10 is within range now.

Yes, definitely the most weekly mileage.

I was consistently at 45-50 for Jan-Apr, then ran 3:28 in May, which was a 10 min PR from my previous PR in Nov, which was on 30 mpw. Heading into this race, I'd definitely feel more confident if I'd been averaging 60 mpw for a year versus 60 mpw for 18 weeks. But, everybody has to have their first semi-real training cycle at some point, right?

I haven't raced a half marathon in over three years, but I'm supposed to run a 13 mile race effort next week (which comes after a 18 mile w/14 at PM this week) so I'll report back on both. I think I could get to 1:30 but it would be hard at the end of a 68 mile week, and 7 days after a long 18/14MP effort.

I haven't done the Yasso's, although I'm aware of the 10x800 estimator (and I've read in places that you're supposed to add 7 right, so 3:10 + 7 minutes gets you 3:17?). Thanks again.

Niceguy542007 wrote:

The schedule calls for a 18 miler this week with the last 14 at MP, then a half marathon tune up next week with a 17 mile run the next day. There is no specific MP workout mileage after this until race day, as this is replaced with VO2 work in the program.

Read it again, there is no HM race in the plan. Races are 8-15k. HM distance may refer to total mileage (including warm up and cool down) Racing a half would be too much at this stage

Incorrect wrote:

Read it again, there is no HM race in the plan. Races are 8-15k. HM distance may refer to total mileage (including warm up and cool down) Racing a half would be too much at this stage

Yes, you are correct, my mistake. So the closest I would get to racing a half would be a simulated 9 mile race at HMP, with a warmup and cool down. Followed by 17 miles easy the next day.

Thanks again for all of the replies.

It sounds like it could take another cycle or two of training to get down to 310, which is fine. I realize the first time through an 18/70 cycle, you're not going to reap all of the benefits, as your body needs to get used to (as opposed to just weathering) the increased miles. Running 65 mpw and trying to get 310 is a lot different than running 30 mpw and getting to 330, which is what I'd been doing for the past few years.

I'll see how the last 7 weeks go, and this week's 18 mile long run with 14 at goal MP will be telling. I'm already a bit tired after a speed workout Monday and 14 miles yesterday, plus I have to run 12 tomorrow (it's a peak week of 70, I'll probably hit 66).

We'll see!