Hi letsrun,
If you got five years to take a novice runner to a good marathoner (sub 2:30), how will you train him?
1) Focusing on shorter distances (5-10k) until he has enough speed to focus on marathon (ie. 15:30 5k, 32:00 10k).
2) Going straight to marathon training with lots of miles.
3) Something else
I wouldn't have them race a marathon until at least the end of year three.
The biggest thing is to have them run as many solid aerobic miles as possible. That means the first two years+ would be mostly fairly even days, just going out and running easy/brisk. I'd probably throw in a quick peak or two for a few 5k/10k races each year to develop leg speed, teach them how to race, provide intermediate goals, and stave off boredom.
I know a handful of people (myself included) that did couch-to-5k (not literally, but started running) about 5 years ago, and are now quite serious. It's taken all of us 2-4 years to develop any sort of respectable training volume (our ages are 30-50 - young kids would be able to build faster). So, depending on age, I'd take at least 3 years to build mileage before starting the first marathon cycle. Then maybe do 3 marathons in the last two years, starting with a very conservatively-paced one with training based primarily on aerobic work, and finishing with an aggressive race with a solid bit of threshold work during the peak.
Actually, come to think of it, this is exactly the experiment I'm performing on myself. Now, my training knowledge has grown just as much as my volume, so I would have done things quite differently years ago, if I'd known what I know now, so my development is a bit delayed, but I'm in my fourth season and in my first marathon cycle - which I'm training for as described above.
My mileage was really low the first couple years - I'd go way too hard and then need to recover for too long. If I could start over I'd run 6 days a week from day 1, and just keep them short for a while, getting in more cumulative mileage. I'd probably be able to handle 80-100+ now, instead of 60-70 like I'm actually able to run at the moment.
Miles. Lots and lots of miles.
Thank you very much for sharing your thoughts and experience.
I am younger (mid 20s) and took the opposite approach for now by starting with marathon from day 1. I ran 2 marathons on my first year and I am beginning my second year by wondering what I should do.
I can handle 6-7 days a week of running as I starte like that but for now I did not do more than 50mpw.
I want to race in 20 weeks but I am still not sure if I go for marathon again, half or 10k. One thing I know is that I will focus on putting on miles.
I would get a book by Lydiard, study & apply the philosophy in it.
Depends on age.
Ignore Lydiard. His books are cash grabs for shady publishers. Half the sh*t in there contradicts itself. So much dated info about techniques, diet, etc.Don't "hold off" on marathons like someone people may suggest. Race a lot. Up to 30k, even marathons. Have the COURAGE that most younger American distance runners lack. It's now or never.Study THIS instead of Lydiard:http://www.bunnhill.com/BobHodge/Rodgers/TrainingLogs/br75traininglog.htm
Marathon Conditioning phase wrote:
I would get a book by Lydiard, study & apply the philosophy in it.
If you want to self-coach, I would start out with Hadd, and then do a lot of reading on Lydiard and John Kellogg's philosophies for when you've established a solid base. Canova is great, but I'd hold off on his stuff until you've accumulated some serious fitness.
Personally, I'd de-emphasize racing for the first year or two, and from there focusing first on the 5k. Racing is fine and good, but in moderation. You'd really want to focus on the long-term development. The early stages are also good for developing strength (body weight and gym), working on technique, and addressing any injuries/mechanical issues that will present problems once you get into some heavy mileage/racing.
What were your results in the first 2 marathons?
koach man wrote:
If you want to self-coach, I would start out with Hadd, and then do a lot of reading on Lydiard and John Kellogg's philosophies for when you've established a solid base. Canova is great, but I'd hold off on his stuff until you've accumulated some serious fitness.
Personally, I'd de-emphasize racing for the first year or two, and from there focusing first on the 5k. Racing is fine and good, but in moderation. You'd really want to focus on the long-term development. The early stages are also good for developing strength (body weight and gym), working on technique, and addressing any injuries/mechanical issues that will present problems once you get into some heavy mileage/racing.
HAHAHA!
Don't ever listen to hobby joggers like this doofus.
4:20 then 3:35
(I know I am a beginner)
shaking my head wrote:
[quote]koach man wrote:
HAHAHA!
Don't ever listen to hobby joggers like this doofus.
Hobby jogger that runs 2:28
*rolls eyes*
Thanks, I really like to read and studied the philosophies you mentionned as well as Hudson, Hansons, Daniels and Magness.
The problem with not racing for me is that without a goal and a determined plan I tend to delay training and not pushing my limits as much (not really adapted for HADD).
iwonder wrote:
The problem with not racing for me is that without a goal and a determined plan I tend to delay training and not pushing my limits as much (not really adapted for HADD).
Hadd definitely advocated racing, even during his Phase 1. Just don't try to cram in a race every weekend... but enough to keep you motivated. His 2400m tests are also very good motivators; you get to see how you are coming along every ~6 weeks.
One thing you shouldn't do is read 1000 peoples' theories and jump around between them. Pick a plan and stick to it. This isn't to say you should stick to this plan for 2 years, but long enough to tell whether or not it works for you. At the stage you're at, you really just need to log some miles... whether it's Hadd, Daniels, Lydiard, Kellogg, whatever... if you stick to it and don't make stupid decisions (like doing too much, too soon!) you're going to see some results.
Studying something like Bill Rodgers' training isn't a bad idea, but you have to keep it in perspective. Even with his 1973 logs, Rodgers had been running through HS and college... he wasn't starting from 0. This is why I also caution against Canova at this point... his schedules are written for elite athletes and it's hard to scale that down to someone running 3+ in the marathon.
tl;dr : Pick a simple schedule to stick to for the short term (6 - 12 months). You don't need rock science training at this point. Like I said, I like Hadd and Kellogg... that's what worked (and is working) for me. If you want some solid resources on those, I can provide them.
*rocket science, not rock science... although rocks are cool I guess.
iwonder wrote:
Hi letsrun,
If you got five years to take a novice runner to a good marathoner (sub 2:30), how will you train him?
1) Focusing on shorter distances (5-10k) until he has enough speed to focus on marathon (ie. 15:30 5k, 32:00 10k).
2) Going straight to marathon training with lots of miles.
3) Something else
Whoa, Whoa, Whoa, grasshopper. Back up. You are asking one thing, but then trying to put it into the context of your own reality, thus consequently confusing some issues here.
I will be direct to save time, though I mean not to be at all disrespectful. You are correct that a sub 2:30 marathoner should be able to run the 5K and 10K times you cite; these can be readily ascertained from an online calculator (e.g.,
https://www.mcmillanrunning.com/#). However, based on the little, but nonetheless poignant, information you have provided in thread so far, you will never run those times. Typically, someone at your age, and/or with the amount of running (which you claim) already behind them , you would already have demonstrated the talent to be able to do so, at least in the future with proper training. Without that talent, no amount of miles slogging is going to get you down to those times. So if you phrase your question as sub 2:30 being "good", then you will never get there.
However, you can try to maximize the talent that you have, and that really is what you should be asking, staying away from set defined times, or putting realistic goal times based on your demonstrated capability today.
One general rule-of-thumb, but significant point, is that given good, fairly uninterrupted training, a runner can improve--before peaking out--for about seven years. So there is a tremendous improvement to be had for folks starting out from a relatively sedentary background.
To succinctly answer your question: if you really want to maximize a Goal Race marathon in five years, then work up your base mileage and strength; see if you can work up to getting close to 20 hrs/week of aerobic/strength training. Within a couple of years, you can race a 5k, 10k and 1/2 to see where you are at, what is a realistic target, and how much endurance needs to be improved.
^^^^^
All that said, I did not define what was meant by getting in "strength".
Even though you will need to do a lot of aerobic miles in the early years, racing infrequently, primarily to avoid injury and keep mileage up, you nonetheless need to include lots of short (i.e., 100 yard) stride work in your "strength" development. This work is where your body learns to run efficiently, from a musculature development point of view. The gains (physical carriage, etc.) from that 'practice' will then carry over to your aerobic mileage.
Sciatica Road wrote:
However, based on the little, but nonetheless poignant, information you have provided in thread so far, you will never run those times. Typically, someone at your age, and/or with the amount of running (which you claim) already behind them , you would already have demonstrated the talent to be able to do so, at least in the future with proper training. Without that talent, no amount of miles slogging is going to get you down to those times. So if you phrase your question as sub 2:30 being "good", then you will never get there.
@ OP: Don't listen to this part of the post. Based on the information you've given, Sciatica Road cannot make any claims about your potential.
Put it out on poll. I think most of the experienced runners on here (malmo, precious, the brojo's, etc.) would agree, having the experience to read between the lines.