Hopefully, you haven't gone to bed yet.
We tried to get this up before USAs started but ran out of time.
A reward to those of you still up:
Hopefully, you haven't gone to bed yet.
We tried to get this up before USAs started but ran out of time.
A reward to those of you still up:
Bravo.Amazing stuff. The people who don't find Magness particularly to be incredibly believable and courageous are nuts. Think about it. What did he have to gain by coming forward? Absolutely nothing but a clean conscience. He knew he'd face arelentless attack and possible career suicide, but he did it anyway.Just as Lance went after people - (even some woman with a low level job) and cost them their careers, he had to know what Alberto would do.That's why he comes across as a hero and potential savior of our beloved sport.
Magness wrote:
When I started at the Oregon Project in 2011 I thought that I had landed my “dream job,” and for a while I tried to put the blinders on and convince myself that it was. But as I mentioned in the BBC/Pro-publica articles, the next year and a half was an ever-growing disillusionment with my job that would lead to my current feelings on the Project. I also grew fearful of what would happen if I said anything other than glowing praise in the public. Shortly before I left Nike, Salazar made it abundantly clear to me that he would use his stature in the sport to affect my career prospects. In an email on May 28, 2012 he told me: “We really want to give you a positive recommendation to wherever you apply for collegiate positions but you are going to make it very hard for Cap, Ben and I to do so when a Nike school Athletic Director calls us to ask about you if you go this route. Think this over very carefully. – Alberto”
Since leaving Nike, this fear has been realized and demonstrated on many occasions. The first time it happened I was not so subtly pressured over an article I wrote about Lance Armstrong for Competitor, even though it didn’t even mention a single NOP athlete. The disclaimer I was pressured to write is still present on that article. After that came a confrontation at the 2013 London athletics meeting, with Salazar cornering me in the athlete warm-up area and asking whom I’d been talking to and if I saw anything while at Nike. It’s humbling to say, but during my time at NOP, I didn’t have the guts to go against the company line in public.
I’m tired of living in fear of threats, having to avoid questions, and always having this lingering cloud of what I witnessed over my head.
Most of the other 17 people are scared to death of Alberto/Nike and thus haven't used their names. And for good reason. They likely work iin the sport and Nike controls the purse strings of everything (Ritz, Webb, etc They certainly aren't defending the guy).
Magness had the balls to at first go to USADA and then Epstein. Kudos to him for having the courage that few others have.
If Salazar and Rupp and Nike people said tomorrow, "Ok, everyone at Nike, everyone at USATF, you can tell the truth. You won't be fired. You won't lose your contract. You won't be prosecuted for violating HIPPA," this thing would be over in 5 minutes.
But we don't have that and everyone is scared to death. Magness was lucky in one regard - he was young and didn't have a family. If you've got kids and family to support, it would be next to impossible to display his courage.
Looks alright, I'm still not that convinced.
looks like a mirror of epstein's article. nothing we haven't already seen though. thanks for the reward for staying up late, rojo.
Magness: "Not only does he admit doing so, he apparently used this tactic of making false customs declarations to send controlled substances internationally more than once."
This is something I have pointed out many times. Sending drugs through the mail and hiding them from customs official is called smuggling. You can't do it internationally. You can't do it domestically.
The DEA is in charge of controlling smuggling.
--
http://www.dea.gov/druginfo/ds.shtml
The DEA's list of controlled drugs.
--
http://www.deadiversion.usdoj.gov/schedules/orangebook/c_cs_alpha.pdf
Testosterone is a schedule III drug (CSA SCH column in the PDF above).
Penalty for schedule III offenses are:
-- First Offense: Not more than 10 yrs. If death or serious bodily injury, not more that 15 yrs. Fine not more than $500,000 if an individual, $2.5 million if not an individual.
-- Second Offense: Not more than 20 yrs. If death or serious injury, not more than 30 yrs. Fine not more than $1 million if an individual, $5 million if not an individual.
-- Source:
Even though I still don't really know if Salazer/NOP are guilty (though some of the stuff like hollowed out books, etc is highly suspicious), impressed by Magness. Unlike Salazar, did not resort to personal attacks in his response. His candor and sincerity comes through in the writing. Have always liked the guy since his day writing a HS running blog (some funny stories about running 100 mpw in zany Houston TX in the middle of summer). Just seems like a chill, down-to-earth dude. Magness, whether or not Salazar should be sanctioned, thank you for coming forward and promoting greater transparency to our sport. We do not want to become like cycling where everyone just rolls their eyes at the mere idea of a "clean" sport.
Thanks for sharing. Given the circumstances of Salazar's viciousness, this is a very restrained and heartfelt statement.
That speaks volumes about who's telling the truth as well. Alberto hits below the belt by making it personal attacks, which is probably the exact same mentality that leads him to doping & cheating.
You know, if Salazar really did anything wrong, I'll be at the front of the line of the folks ready to give him a good talking-to. I'm as objective as anyone. But this stuff from Magness, the factual parts of which we already knew, is just irritating - and you're co-signing his nonsense by pretending these "crimes" signal punishable or even devious behavior. Learn something, son:If Magness knows exactly how many pills were sent in the mail and what they were, why doesn't he say so? Did he take photos, videos, fingernail scrapings? Were there 78 pills, 78 1/2 or some other number? And by "pills," does he mean caplets, tablets, or gel-caps? How many grains did they weigh? What were their physical dimensions? Did they taste bitter, salty, or like a Parisian whore's bunghole?We need to be real and police ourselves here. If Magness is going to make these claims, he needs to supply at least a little oomph, too.
One eye is still awake wrote:
Magness: "Not only does he admit doing so, he apparently used this tactic of making false customs declarations to send controlled substances internationally more than once."
This is something I have pointed out many times. Sending drugs through the mail and hiding them from customs official is called smuggling. You can't do it internationally. You can't do it domestically.
The DEA is in charge of controlling smuggling.
--
http://www.dea.gov/druginfo/ds.shtmlThe DEA's list of controlled drugs.
--
http://www.deadiversion.usdoj.gov/schedules/orangebook/c_cs_alpha.pdfTestosterone is a schedule III drug (CSA SCH column in the PDF above).
Penalty for schedule III offenses are:
-- First Offense: Not more than 10 yrs. If death or serious bodily injury, not more that 15 yrs. Fine not more than $500,000 if an individual, $2.5 million if not an individual.
-- Second Offense: Not more than 20 yrs. If death or serious injury, not more than 30 yrs. Fine not more than $1 million if an individual, $5 million if not an individual.
-- Source:
http://www.dea.gov/druginfo/ftp_chart1.pdf
Oh yeah well that's just great like the govt is actual
Saladbar is obviously a little sketchy, but at least he had the wherewithal to write a logically coherent statement. I would figure Epstein, at least, would have put together some type of normative argument, instead of a bunch of hearsay rolled into a documentary, featuring two burnouts and and an also ran who (unlike in the Lance situation) insist on their own purity?
Didn't every LRC'er already know that Al Sal (and everyone else with the money/sense) was doing everything they could to get every possible advantage, so long as it wasn't going to get them popped for a rules violation? Its not glamorous, but its what the job calls for. It is Rupp's job to run as fast as he can. Its Al Sal's job to make that happen. If NOP is doing anything short of 100% of what is allowed given their resources, than they are doing their job badly.
If people want athletes with clean hands, they should go watch the special olympics.
If Kara had said "I used ______ and had an unfair advantage so ________ and here is my prize money back" I'd believe her. If Magness said "I am unfit to coach because I was part of this and stayed silent for so long, so please accept my retirement" Id believe him. But as of right now they just aren't credible.
LetsRun.com wrote:
Hopefully, you haven't gone to bed yet.
We tried to get this up before USAs started but ran out of time.
A reward to those of you still up:
http://www.letsrun.com/news/2015/06/steve-magness-issues-passionate-rebuttal-to-alberto-salazars-open-letter-salazars-statements-actually-confirm-what-i-witnessed-and-what-i-told-to-the-bbcpropublica-reporters-in-their-documen/
y a w n
It might be passionate but IMO it's also very weak and offers nothing to strengthen his allegations that NOP/Salazar are dirty
Interresting how contradictory Magness mind works!
When Magness himself gave "glowing praise" to NOP before leaving it was what you do in that situation - and in hindsight obviously a lie he had to tell?
But when Salazar gave glowing praise to Magness because he had to leave him in charge for ten days it must have been the truth - and in hindsight the absolute truth about what he thought about him at the time?
Yeah, right! I could have bought the first if he'd realized that things work the same in the other direction too, that AS pepped him to do his best under necessary conditions even if he knew it wasn't as good as the athlethes deserved.
That said - the main concern and uptapped part of the story now is that on the sideroad to the main story it has been confirmed that SM actually more or less did stalk a young female runner at NOP into having a relationship with him (whether or not that short relationsship actually started before or after the date he left is besides the point).
If I were a female runner under his tutelage in Houston (or the parent of a female runner there) I'd be very concerned knowing that has been part of his MO. Methinks reporters down there should go talk to them about whether or not they feel comfortable having such a guy on as coach!
Would be nice if Magness confirmed if he knew what the medication being sent through the post was and knew Sal was going to send it like Sal claims.
Overall I can buy quite a lot of Salazars explanations but not the testing of testosterone cream one. That is just too bizarre.
All the rest of this stuff is noise really only the testosterone stuff really matters nothing else is banned anyway really and if it is they had a TUE.
Some of the responses so far have been inaccurate. Epstein stated Salazar did not confirm why he needed testosterone cream. Clearly he did. He said he has hypogonadism. That might be complete bs but Sal did give an explanation. One telegraph article I read said Al had confirmed he rubbed testosterone on Rupp to check the amount it would take to test positive which is not what Sal said. Clearly inaccurate responses and reporting is not helping with the situation.
Overall so far is Salazar guilty? Probably. Would they be able to ban him from the sport on evidence so far? Doubtful and if they did it would be for Mr meaner offences. Need some more evidence.
hobbyjoggist wrote:
Didn't every LRC'er already know that Al Sal (and everyone else with the money/sense) was doing everything they could to get every possible advantage, so long as it wasn't going to get them popped for a rules violation? Its not glamorous, but its what the job calls for. It is Rupp's job to run as fast as he can. Its Al Sal's job to make that happen. If NOP is doing anything short of 100% of what is allowed given their resources, than they are doing their job badly.
Thank You for nailing down the issue to this one single obvious paragraph.
You need to pay closer attention, Montesquieu.
Magness said clearly in the original Epstien article that there were 2 pills in the book. Epstien also has an email from another case where Alberto said he sent Celebrex inside of a magazine. And now Alberto has publlshed emails where he admits to sending hollowed out books with medicine himself.
All of these items are - at minimum - prescription drugs. In most countries it is illegal to mail prescriptions across an international border without the proper customs declarations. Alberto's own emails EXPLICITLY say that he used hollowed out books to make sure the medicines he sent "clear" customs - i.e. he just admitted to a criminal offense.
The severety of that offense may be determined by what those substances were, and that could range from something mild like Celebrex or the nasal spray to something more severe. But the fact is he did send them, he admits to sending them, and it was illegal to do so since he misrepresented them on the customs form.
Flat Stanley wrote:
Epstein stated Salazar did not confirm why he needed testosterone cream. Clearly he did. He said he has hypogonadism.
Where did Epstein state this? Because that's certainly not in the Pro Publica article from yesterday.
http://www.propublica.org/article/alberto-salazar-disputes-allegations-some-of-which-were-never-madeOK here goes.I feel like Magness is defending the letter of what he said, but not the spirit. In fact, I think he gets the letter wrong at times too..The rest of my response is going to assume this: The allegations are that Alberto Salazar broke doping rules or unethically manipulated the rules. If you have a problem with this premise, don\'t bother reading the rest of my post. If this isn\'t the allegation, or isn\'t what\'s to be inferred, show me where Epstein, ProPublica, BBC, Kara Goucher, Magness, or anyone else, says so.
Although Salazar promised he would show that the allegations against him are “false,” his statements actually confirm what I witnessed and what I told to the BBC/ProPublica reporters in their documentary last month.
Magness isn\'t addressing the allegations. He\'s using the fact that Salazar confirms the events that transpired are true as support for his allegations. But these events do not show that Salarzar broke doping rules or manipulated rules. There is no disagreement that he sent medication through the mail. Salazar provided email records that support (notice i didn\'t say \"prove,\" so don\'t harp on me for this) his claim that these medications didn\'t break doping rules or manipulate the rules. Magness says Salazar was \"making false customs declarations to send controlled substances internationally more than once.\" While stupid, this does not support the allegation that Salazar broke doping rules or manipulated the rules.
I also provided documentation showing one of his runners was on “testosterone medication” – something Salazar dismisses as a typo for legal supplements, even though it was recorded by a world renowned physiologist who surely knew the difference between a banned substance and a supplement he originally told the BBC was “testoboost” but now cannot remember clearly. Furthermore Salazar tries to portray it as my responsibility to raise the question with Mhyre, a man I never met and whom Salazar had worked with for over a decade.
Nowhere here does Magness accuse Salazar of using testosterone. He implies it, but doesn\'t come out and say it because he doesn\'t know. Whether it was testosterone or a supplement has been discussed to death, so I\'m not going to discuss it again. My main point here is that Magness does not claim that Salazar used testosterone on Rupp.
Salazar also confirms that he conducted tests on his own son to see exactly how much testosterone gel would trigger a positive drug test result; exactly as I described. He offered excuses for each of these actions including many of the far-fetched rationalizations he originally told as well as a few new ones. But he does not dispute the fact that they happened – a very strange way of proving them “false.”
Again, no accusations here of rules being broken or manipulated. Salazar never intended to prove these events didn\'t happen. Magness seems to be misinformed if he thinks Salazar said he was going to prove it didn\'t happen. But Salazar provides email evidence that this test wasn\'t for microdosing. That\'s the evidence against the allegation that he broke or manipulated rules. Magness never mentions Salazar\'s claim that they were investigating it for sabatoge reasons. There is no evidence of microdosing anywhere.
Unfortunately Salazar has also adopted the tactic of character assassination against myself, against Kara and Adam Goucher,
Magness and Kara have both claimed that they left on their own will because of doping concerns. They use this to bolster their argument that it was a serious enough issue that it made them leave. Doesn\'t this leave Salazar no choice but to provide reasons for them leaving? Suppose what Salazar says about them is true. They would still use the character assassination argument.
Re-read the article again with this premise in mind: \"The allegations are that Alberto Salazar broke doping rules or unethically manipulated the rules.\" Notice that there is NO mention of this allegation. Doesn\'t it seem like Magness might want to address the allegations in his response? This debate is just a bunch of swirling clouds of suspicioan and is a total moving target. Please, Kara, Magness, etc: ADDRESS THE ALLEGATIONS! THATS ALL I CARE ABOUT.
This is all a bunch of BS
It doesn't matter whether this makes me like Magness or hate him or believe him or not believe him, or think he is a swell guy or that he is a dork.
There are no concrete accusations here. He relayed three or four occurrences that he either observed or took part in. Salazar Addressed each one and explained them and had email back up with Magness copied, to provide context. A perfect example of this is the urine test at the mayo clinic and all the email back up where it was discussed with US officials. Why didn't Magness correct the documentary makers and tell them that there was context for this, that it wasn't a secret operation, and that it all made logical sense. And why doesn't he address it in this impassioned rebuttal if it's incorrect. How about some good reporting, and pursuing this question with magness, Instead of droning on about character assassination. Instead of droning on about character assassination, last time I checked, that's not a violation that any of us should be worried about
Here's the question(s) that matter, was Magness ever asked to take part in a cover-up or witness anybody in the program doing anything illegal, mainly doping, or microdosing. Did he ever see anybody doping. Did Salazar or anyone else on the team ever talk about doping or confide in him that there was doping going on? If the answer to all these questions is no, then everything Magnus has put forth serms to be nothing more than some observations and feelings he had. If that's all he has to go on, then this is nothing more than his perspective, his feelings, and how he has chosen to colorize it.
If that's all he has to go on, then this is nothing more than his perspective, his feelings, and how he has chosen to colorize it.
At this point, there either needs to be some concrete accusations, not innuendo, not interpretation, or the story needs to stop. Seriously. If he can't refute salazars explanations, then he shouldn't bother with a response.
Discrepancy Galore wrote:
Interresting how contradictory Magness mind works!
When Magness himself gave "glowing praise" to NOP before leaving it was what you do in that situation - and in hindsight obviously a lie he had to tell?
But when Salazar gave glowing praise to Magness because he had to leave him in charge for ten days it must have been the truth - and in hindsight the absolute truth about what he thought about him at the time?
Magness' praise was in a public interview where he was representing his employer - what was he supposed to do? Say "I thought I wanted this job, but it turns out they're all cheaters" and have some jackass like you immediately attack his credability back then as well, in addition to losing his job for trashing Nike in the media?
Salazar's praise was in a private email sent to other NOP staff. Why would he lie to his own staff if he distrusted Magness's ability at the time?
Magness never showed any evidence of doping in the first place. Salazar pointed that out and clarified some things. At this point, this back and forth is becoming very, very stupid. Everyone involved is sounding like a bunch of 12 year olds who refuse to take the high road. That includes Salazar. At this point I think I'm just going to wait for the USATF to do their investigation and see what they see.
LetsRun.com wrote:
Hopefully, you haven't gone to bed yet.
We tried to get this up before USAs started but ran out of time.
A reward to those of you still up:
http://www.letsrun.com/news/2015/06/steve-magness-issues-passionate-rebuttal-to-alberto-salazars-open-letter-salazars-statements-actually-confirm-what-i-witnessed-and-what-i-told-to-the-bbcpropublica-reporters-in-their-documen/