Americans at Comrades

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  • Leirbag
    4 years ago 05/31/2015 8:27am CDT
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    No one could muster the magic of Alberto Salazar, but some good attempts at the legendary 87km race in South Africa.

    Sage Canaday placed 15th in 6:03:47
    Max King rallied all the way to 11th before 70km, but apparently moved too early and placed 50th in 6:33:48.

    Sage almost matched Michael Wardian's 2012 time of 6:03:42, but a great reminder of how well Salazar's 5:38:39 was in winning in 1994. Salazar was an absolute mental beast of an athlete to push himself that hard when a guy like Sage is half an hour behind with a time that would be competitive for the win today in 2015.

    Can't wait to hear what the guys thought of the race.
  • race goes two ways
    4 years ago 05/31/2015 4:08pm CDT
    re: Leirbag
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    Aren't the up year times a little slower?
  • Leirbag
    4 years ago 05/31/2015 5:33pm CDT
    re: race goes two ways
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    Salazar's year was an UP year, which makes it even more impressive, http://results.ultimate.dk/comrades/resultshistory/front/index.php?results=true
  • sbear
    4 years ago 05/31/2015 7:59pm CDT
    re: Leirbag
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    If you know anything about Comrades you would know the DOWN is more difficult than the UP.

    But let's not forget that Salazar was a drug cheat...
  • tired of dope trolls
    4 years ago 05/31/2015 8:45pm CDT
    re: sbear
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    sbear wrote:

    If you know anything about Comrades you would know the DOWN is more difficult than the UP.

    But let's not forget that Salazar was a drug cheat...

    And you know this how?
  • hold the phone
    registered
    4 years ago 05/31/2015 8:51pm CDT
    re: sbear
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    sbear wrote:
    If you know anything about Comrades you would know the DOWN is more difficult than the UP.

    Here are the course records:
    http://news.comrades.com/comrades-records

    For both men and women, the UP records are slower than the DOWN records. Is that because the runners don't try as hard on the DOWN years?
  • rojo
    cofounder
    4 years ago 05/31/2015 10:29pm CDT
    re: Leirbag
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    Leirbag wrote:

    Sage Canaday placed 15th in 6:03:47
    Max King rallied all the way to 11th before 70km, but apparently moved too early and placed 50th in 6:33:48.

    Sage almost matched Michael Wardian's 2012 time of 6:03:42, but a great reminder of how well Salazar's 5:38:39 was in winning in 1994. Salazar was an absolute mental beast of an athlete to push himself that hard when a guy like Sage is half an hour behind with a time that would be competitive for the win today in 2015.

    Can't wait to hear what the guys thought of the race.

    Damnit!!! Sage - my ex athlete - didn't win? I told him to "take the freaking Prozac. Take the Prozac." I guess he didn't listen.

    On a serious note, let me address your "Salazar was an absolute mental beast of an athlete to push himself that hard when a guy like Sage is half an hour behind with a time that would be competitive for the win today in 2015" comment.

    I don't doubt that Salazar was mentally tough, but so is Sage, and all of these guys. Mental toughness didn't allow Salazar to win Comrades. Talent did.

    Salazar was a freaking former Boston and New York champ winning a freaking ultra.

    Salazar's pb for 5000 is 13:11.93.
    Sage's pb for 5000 is 14:34.69.
    Salazar's is 29.8 seconds per mile better than Sage.

    Salazar's pb for 10,000 is 27:25.61 .
    Sage's pb for 10,000 is 29:47.39.
    Salazar's is 22.8 seconds per mile better than Sage.

    Salazar's pb for the marathon is 2:08:51.
    Sage's pb for the marathon is 2:16:52.
    Salazar's pb is 18.3 seconds per mile better than Sage.

    At Comrades, Alberto ran 5:38:39 for an unknown distance.
    At Comrades today, Sage ran 6:03.47. for 87.72 km. It's hard to cmopare average page as I don't know how far the course was in 1994. This year's course was the longest in 40 years and 877km longer than 2 years ago.

    If Alberto ran 877m less than Sage, then Alberto's average time was 23.9 seconds per mile faster than Sage's. If he ran the same distance as sage, then he ran 27.6 seconds per mile faster than Sage.

    And that's in a race where Alberto is going great and winning. I"m assuming once you realize you aren't winning, you aren't going to maximize your time.

    So Alberto was nearly 30 seconds per mile faster than Sage at 5k but possibly only 23.9 seconds per mile faster than him in the ultra. I don't think mental toughness had anything to do with Salazar winning and Sage coming in 15th.

    It's a miracle and a total testatment to Sage's toughness that we're even talking about Sage winning Comrades or in the same breadth as one of the sport's legends - Alberto Salazar. Sage was the third most talented guy in the 10k on my non-scholarship Ivy League team during his senior year.

    Sage = MENTALLY TOUGH AS HELL

    Sage has run a marathon in 2:16 and his 5k pb is just 14:34. So his marathon pb is just 25.6 seconds per mile slower than his 5k pb. Salazar''s marathon pb is 30 seconds per mile slower than his 5k pb.

    Based of your logic and off of their 5 pbs, if Salazar had the mental toughness of Sage his marathon pb would be 1:55 faster or 2:06:56
  • rojo
    cofounder
    4 years ago 05/31/2015 10:38pm CDT
    re: rojo
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    Now that I've got this off my chest. There is a good article on RW where AMby Burfoot recalls Salazar's Comrades win and says it was the most thrilling day of all the years' he worked at Runners World:


    http://www.runnersworld.com/running-tips/may-30-most-amazing-day-may-31-1994-when-alberto-salazar-won-comrades

    Burfoot wrote:
    "Salazar does, however, have something few other coaches can bring to the table. He's believed the impossible. And then achieved it. That's the most important lesson any young runner can learn. It must be inspiring to see it in front of you every day."

    I do remember it being a big deal. It kind of reminds me of the feelings I had when Jack Nicklaus won the Masters in 1986. I was 12 at the time. I remember hearing that Jack Nicklaus won the Masters and I didn't believe it as I heard of Jack Nicklaus but thought he was some retired guy (he was 46 at the time). He'd never been relevant while I was old enough to follow sports.

    Salazar's win was sort of won last hurrah in a similar vain. And totally unexpected in the Pre-Internet era people thought Salazar was rtired. Burfoot summed it up perfectly:

    Burfoot wrote:
    He hadn't run particularly well since his great New York and Boston victories in the early 1980s, and we had received no news (in those pre Twitter and Facebook days) that he was traveling to South Africa for Comrades. I imagined he had given up serious training to enter the middle management ranks at Nike. It made no sense that he would try to rescue a has-been marathon career by doubling his race distance.
    It made no sense.
  • mckayla maroney
    4 years ago 05/31/2015 10:57pm CDT
    re: Leirbag
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    Leirbag wrote:

    Sage almost matched Michael Wardian's 2012 time of 6:03:42, but a great reminder of how well Salazar's 5:38:39 was in winning in 1994.

    As mentioned above, the course was 1/2+ mile long this year due to rerouting because of construction, so technically Sage ran faster than Michael. This was a very unimpressive performance for our top two American ultra performers. Goes to show what happens when you throw a few Africans into an ultra: they dominate it too.
  • S. Canaday
    registered
    4 years ago 06/01/2015 1:37am CDT
    re: mckayla maroney
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    Thanks for the support. I'll admit I ran a pretty sub-par race (as far as my own ultra executions go). The wheels didn't totally fall off but I was in survival shuffle mode the last 30km...more muscle failure instead of totally blowing a gasket and bonking, but it was not pretty. When I saw Max again he was really rigging up, but fighting the good fight. All these guys and gals are super tough.

    But again this ultra is like no other! Max and I were out in 5:50 the first mile and buried in 300-400th place. These guys are great runners and the competition is very deep. The hills and heat get pretty brutal as well.

    Max and I moved well in the first half and were in excellent position. I was honestly hoping i could have a great race and be top 3 though and was not going to go out more conservatively (which I honestly think is the way to go if you want to just crack the top 10 barely).
    The course and competition got to me And I was humbled though . I did not feel good with 40km to go and it was a big struggle just to finish. Honestly I think racing Boston hurt me as I should have trained differently know that I know the course/event. FYI the course was re routed near the finish due to construction and ran a bit over 800m longer than in previous "up" years (I had 55.1 miles on my GPS). But that's enough excuses!

    I will say it is still possible for a 2:18 to 2:19 marathoner win this race... Jonas Budd has been 2nd here recently and other guys that have been top 3 do not always have the fastest marathon times.
    Obviously a runner like Salazar is 2 or 3 tiers above me in terms of performances, but marathon speed isn't everything in this race (as we know in most ultras).

    I learned a lot about this race this year and I want to come back to try to improve. To win one has to be on a totally different level, but it would be an honor to get a top 10 or top 3 position.

    To take part in Comrades is just an amazing experience (I mean, what other ultra over 50 miles has 20,000 runners and like a million people watching?!).
  • Leirbag
    4 years ago 06/01/2015 5:47am CDT
    re: S. Canaday
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    Congrats, Sage, heck of a run and congrats for sticking your neck out there and attempting Comrades. It's gotta be tough for an American with all the travel time, etc.

    Rojo, you are not understanding Salazar's career. Salazar was about 10 years past his prime. He was no longer a sub-27:30 athlete or 2:08 Marathoner. I think he is referenced as saying he felt like he could run a 2:17 marathon at his time of Comrades, did 100% of his workouts on a treadmill, and was a ghost of his former self. I believe he ran a 10K in around 29:00.

    As Sage states, I think a guy like himself can win this thing. If Ellie Greenwood can win (2014), so can Sage or Max or even a Ryan Hall if he gets back after it... it takes a great day, great strength, and great pain management. Salazar suffered out there. You should read about it, it's pretty inspiring.
  • Leirbag
    4 years ago 06/01/2015 5:52am CDT
    re: Leirbag
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    Footnote - Salazar's last year ranked in American marathoning was 1984!! http://trackandfieldnews.com/images/stories/Rankings/11-mmarrankus.pdf

    In Letsrun terms, he would have been a washed up scrub like Ryan Hall when he won Comrades in 1994!! 10 YEARS past his prime.
  • S. Canaday
    registered
    4 years ago 06/01/2015 9:25am CDT
    re: Leirbag
    Forum Index
    Thanks. The travel/jetlag was fine so no excuse there.

    With all do respect I think Rojo does understand Salazar's career though ...we all know he is mentally tough and put himself into a bodybag at Falmouth by running hard in the heat. I've talked to him in person and can see how intense he is about running.

    But honestly I'd take the "mentally tough" component out of it. Max King is tough as nails too...all the top distance runners are!

    The thing that makes the big differences in time and place is talent, experience and specific training. I'm obviously not in The same class as Salazar as a runner...not even in the ballpark! And I know how his career went... But don't think that because he was 39 years old that that was a disadvantage at Comrades. The talent (and at least some training) was still there. For ultras (and longer races in general) guys in their 30s and even right around 40 can still run pretty darn well also! "Old man" strength. Max King and I race a lot...(too much)..and at totally different events. Next time I"ll dedicate months to specifically prepare for Comrades...not bounce around and barely average 80-90 miles a week. Finally, Treadmill training is actually a good idea for Comrades as well.... Now I know!
  • Ross Tucker
    registered
    4 years ago 06/01/2015 9:44am CDT
    re: tired of dope trolls
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    The down run is about 2% faster than the up run (around 5 to 6 min to the elite men), but the damage done during the down is greater. The course profile has an enormous overall drop, and most of it happens in the second half, so fatigued legs (already run a marathon by then) are exposed to relentless steep descent. The majority of Comrades runners will therefore tell you that they perceive the down run to be more difficult than the up run.

    But the down run is still faster. So you're both right.

    Oh, and I know this because I grew up on a diet of Comrades here in SA.
  • co-flounder
    4 years ago 06/01/2015 10:48am CDT
    re: rojo
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    rojo wrote:
    Salazar's win was sort of won last hurrah in a similar vain. And totally unexpected in the Pre-Internet era people thought Salazar was rtired. Burfoot


    rojo, are you won vein guy? Don't you think that it is time to rtire?

    Whenever I get an inkling to make my alumnus donation to Princeton, I just read something that rojo tried to write. I feel that they are squandering the endowment as long as they can't get a guy like rojo up to the English skills of any particularly dimwitted six year old in Mongolia.
  • HRE
    4 years ago 06/01/2015 12:45pm CDT
    re: S. Canaday
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    Congratulations. as to the "mentally tough" thing, I don't think anyone who races competitively at a distance of that length cannot be mentally tough. The time Salazar ran Comrades is to me one of the most intriguing episodes in the sport. It was like seeing Babe Ruth come out of retirement in 1940 as a pitcher, throw a no hitter, and then re-retire. I'd be really interested in knowing why you think training on a treadmill would be good preparation for a race like Comrades and if you decide to have another go at an OT qualifier best of luck.
  • Just guessing
    4 years ago 06/02/2015 4:40am CDT
    re: HRE
    Forum Index
    I'm guessing the treadmill would be good for 2 reasons:
    steady runs at a %incline that match the course profile.
    Heat training. It's hot running on a treadmill.
  • Leirbag
    4 years ago 06/02/2015 4:57am CDT
    re: Just guessing
    Forum Index
    Maybe mentally tough was the wrong choice of words. Maybe it's gusto, or balls, or courage, or tenacity, but the man hammered from the gun, opened up a lead, and led wire to wire.

    Did the Americans have the physical ability to run the fist mile in sub-5:20? Yes? Did they? No. Did they have the physical ability to lead the race through halfway? Yes. Did they decide to? No? It's a matter of going for it and not going for it. So whatever constitutes that mentality in an athlete is what Salazar has that many Americans have not had since. The Americans in today's era want to "pace" Comrades, and not race it.

    I think they ran great. 6:03 is excellent. Max hitting close to top ten at 70km is great. Them just participating is awesome, but puts into perspective Salazar's run, which in Comrades lore is legendary.
  • nice comparison
    4 years ago 06/02/2015 9:07am CDT
    re: rojo
    Forum Index
    That's a good breakdown.
    BTW I saw Sage running in Boulder the other week. He was smiling.
  • not an american
    4 years ago 06/02/2015 11:27am CDT
    re: Leirbag
    Forum Index
    Comrades to race is a beast especially first time unless you Salazar(the quickest marathoner to win it)
    I have done 16 including this year and its Strength,strength and more strength
    Max King has a 2hrs13min marathon ran 6hrs33min granted slightly longer and his first one.I did 6hr34 and have a 2hr31marathon.Caroline Wostmann the ladies winner ran 6hrs12min and has a 2hr44min marathon. WTF analysize that for me.Fast runners have failed dismally Gert Thys/Mark Plaatjies/Josh Cox.You normally serve as an apprentice first to learn this race and respect it.
    Bart Yasso had some great comments about Comrades.Michael Wardian is not a speed runner but hard as nails.
    Leirbag wrote:

    No one could muster the magic of Alberto Salazar, but some good attempts at the legendary 87km race in South Africa.

    Sage Canaday placed 15th in 6:03:47
    Max King rallied all the way to 11th before 70km, but apparently moved too early and placed 50th in 6:33:48.

    Sage almost matched Michael Wardian's 2012 time of 6:03:42, but a great reminder of how well Salazar's 5:38:39 was in winning in 1994. Salazar was an absolute mental beast of an athlete to push himself that hard when a guy like Sage is half an hour behind with a time that would be competitive for the win today in 2015.

    Can't wait to hear what the guys thought of the race.