What is the value of training at marathon pace if you're not a marathoner?

Can you unmute your question and try again?

If you're not training for the marathon, how do you know your marathon pace?

If your so-called 'marathon pace' is based on VDOT tables then it's not really your marathon pace - I doubt you'd go out and run a 6:30 pace marathon. It's more like a long tempo.

low volume wrote:

Can you unmute your question and try again?

That's my mistake, I meant to type "moot"

Conversion tables or calculators are not invalid. They give us a "projected pace" based on current ability. Meaning, if I was to start training for a marathon, 6:30 would be my goal pace.

EP Confusion wrote:

If you're not training for the marathon, how do you know your marathon pace?

If your so-called 'marathon pace' is based on VDOT tables then it's not really your marathon pace - I doubt you'd go out and run a 6:30 pace marathon. It's more like a long tempo.

Long tempo or hard run.

From the day I started running, tthrough my competitive years, to today my favorite runs have been progression runs, out/back runs, or just flat out hard runs. Old timers would call this "running to the barn". You might call it a high end aerobic run. This is a run you could do most days of the week but it depends on pace and distance.

Progression run: Start slow, finish fast. Did this a lot on weekend long runs. Would also do during summer or winter if not doing "real workouts". Sometimes the finish would be very fast the last mile.

Out/back: Lazy man's tempo. Go out for 3-5 miles, turn around, scorch it back. Did this a lot during summer and winter as well.

Alan

I know that people run these types of workouts. Call them high end aerobic runs, progression runs, marathon pace runs, out/back, whatever....

my question is...what is the purpose of running at those paces? There seems to be a whole spectrum of paces between what we can nail down as LT pace and what is considered easy or recovery pace.

Jack Daniels used to say that every run should have a purpose and you should be able to articulate it, I agree, So what am I working on when I go out at 6:30 pace for a 5 miler versus 7:30 pace?

Would I be better off running an LT workout (like 5 x 1 mile at 15K pace w/ 9 sec rest) instead of an MP run? What is the benefit of those intermediate paces for a non-marathoner?

It's a fair question. I think that one of the purposes of a MP or high-end aerobic run is increased economy at that pace, and that "baking in" increased economy at ALL faster paces, even slower ones (if that makes sense) is a good thing. It's surely not good to make all your easy runs into MP runs; that creates incrementally increased stress over time and eventually it'll catch up to you, sometimes in the week or two before your goal race.

But MP, compared with easy pace, not only demands a longer stride but also makes increased demands on your diaphragm. It's at or above the ventilatory threshold; your breathing rate increases--in my case, from 3/3 to 3/2--and your breaths deepen. It's good to hard-wire in those changes; make yourself comfortable with them.

To me, substituting high-end aerobic running for some easy runs creates diversity of running paces, and diversity is good. It makes you incrementally more relaxed at those paces, and it may even teach you something about stride rate, breathing rate and depth, etc.

I run many of my long runs (13-14 miles) easy on the way out and MP on the way back. In Michael Sandrock's book, he calls this "banging it out" and claims that Mark Wetmore encourages his runners to do their long runs this way. Works for me. Same for Lydiard's 22-miler over hills in Waiaturua (sp?). Warm into it, slowly open up, get into the groove, and bang it out.

Marathon pace for me translates to about 85% of max HR. To be honest, I seem to get more training effect NOT by sticking to that effort level for the entire return leg of a 14-miler, but by doing so for the first 3-4 miles and then slowly cranking it down to I'm running closer to 90%, which is more like half marathon pace. I occasionally go beyond that--running the last mile at 10K effort, for example--but only in the last 3-4 weeks before a goal race, not as a regular year-round practice.

And early in the season, when I'm slowly increasing the length of my LR, I just run easy the whole way. But once I've extended the LR to 14 miles: I can't help it. I want and need to bang. And THOSE runs, repeated over 4-6 weeks, are what really get me in shape.

Like one poster commented 6:30 is not going to happen for you in a marathon. If so, then you are running the wrong distances, but in all likelihood 6:30 pace is a poorly projected marathon pace based on some shitty online calculator. This happens alot when you put your shorter distance PRs in since the calculator likes to assume you have amazing running economy and aerobic capacity.

Wait, there it is: running economy. Running at faster paces challenges your running economy thus, increasing your ability to run at a faster pace.

MP is not relevant when you are training for 5k or any other distance that is not a marathon. Afterall, why would it be if your not training for that distance? Even for Marathoners MP is only necessarily relevant in long tempo workouts since most workouts will easily be done under MP pace.

Actually, this took a while to click but 6:30 sounds closer to your tempo pace or just off your HM pace. Imagine you can do that for 6 to 8 miles without totally exhausting yourself then you have yourself a decent tempo run and you probably know how beneficial tempo runs are!

(P.S. I totally think you can run a 6:30 pace marathon. That's like what a 2:50? That's easier than sub 17 IMO!)

The mania for zone training has perpetuated the myth that training at MP (for non-marathoners) is just "junk" training. The reasoning is straightforward, but fallacious. First, scientists and coaches see that they can measure certain physiological events. Then they see that the speed at which those events occurs correlates with racing performance to some extent. So far so good.But then they conclude that improving the speed at which those events occur is the best way to improve racing performance. This is simply not a justified conclusion. They further conclude that training at the paces at which those events occur is the best way to improve those speeds. Again, this has not proven true.Daniels-style zone training tends to work best for 5k runners because it involves a lot of time at speeds slightly above and slightly below race pace. But for athletes focusing on other distances, coming at one's training from both a "speed" and a "strength" perspective (which is essentially what all the best athletes in the world do) involves different paces than 3k or 10mile/HM. Those different paces may not be the paces at which particular measurable physiological events occur. But that doesn't make them "junk" miles.Marathon pace, in particular, seems to be the red-headed stepchild of zone training. Athletes often ignore this pace completely if they're not training for a marathon. This is a mistake. Marathon pace is one of the slowest paces at which you begin to disturb aerobic homeostasis. Running at MP is a fantastic way to develop aerobic strength and even to raise your lactate threshold.

aerobicc wrote:I understand the benefits of running near lactate threshold and around 3K pace for V02 max improvement.

For what it's worth, running at 3k pace will not improve your VO2max unless you're pretty much untrained. The only things that will improve it are losing weight, living at altitude, and possibly heat adaptation. Running at 3k pace is great if you're going to race a distance between 1500 and 10k, though.

KudzuRunner wrote:

But MP, compared with easy pace, not only demands a longer stride but also makes increased demands on your diaphragm. It's at or above the ventilatory threshold; your breathing rate increases--in my case, from 3/3 to 3/2--and your breaths deepen. It's good to hard-wire in those changes; make yourself comfortable with them.

MP is not above ventilatory threshold. VT correlates very closely with LT.

The case for MP runs seems to be rather weak so far (for a non-marathoner)

You could still improve running economy by doing workouts in the LT, V02 max, and "reps" zone of effort...

As a half-marathoner, I would focus on 2 mile repeats at HM pace and continuous 20 to 40 minute "tempo runs" ranging from 10K pace to HM pace.

But again, what is the value of running slower than HM pace? By the way, I'm not discounting the value of a weekly long run or high overall mileage. I'm just just confused whether it should all be done at a relaxed pace on non-workout days and save the "quality" for LT, V02, and reps.

I guess this relates to the question we have about why Mo Farah increased the pace of his regular runs when joining with Salazar. Apparently, some believe that a high-end aerobic run has merit. I just wish it were articulated from the point of view of exercise physiology (ventilatory threshold? as a previous poster mentioned?)

I was going to give a flippant answer, like "because Peter Snell did it" but realized it's a really good question.

Daniels doesn't suggest there are any physiological benefits to MP running but that occasionally replacing an E with MP in good conditions, adds variety to your training. and can help slower runners with their technique, which tends to get sloppy during E/R runs.

Either McMillan or Pfitzinger said in RT that the benefits of sub-tempo may have similar benefits to tempo running, if you maintain them over longer distances.

800 dude, I agree that zone training tends to be reductionist and I'm not a big fan of that. But a few questions for you...

Can you elaborate on how MP improves your lactate threshold? That's not clear to me. And what do you mean by aerobic homeostasis?

If you can't improve V02 max in a trained athlete, then what's the purpose of running at 3K pace in workouts? Neuromuscular coordination?

I like to race 5k, 10k, and halfs at marathon pace. I give's me the feel of race pace when I race a full marathon. Sure, when I am asked what my 5 and 10k race pace is I say it is my marathon pace and I get odd looks.

aerobicc wrote:

What specific adaptations, physiologically speaking, are occuring at marathon pace that are not occuring at easy pace?

I am going to say something that you will not understand.

Different training paces are not prescribed by a coach, training plan, or scientist because of some omniscient being who knows exactly how each person should be trained.

Different training paces are advocated in training because not all muscle fibers are activated when we run. Different muscle fibers are activated at different rates at different times. The purpose of varying training paces, distances, and time is to develop as many muscles over a training period as possible, while still being able to recover.

Why spend part of your weekly running at 'marathon pace'? As just re-inforcement that you are stimulating all fibers in your muscles as possible while encouraging growth and recovery.

That being said, one should try to be aware of the balance of under- and over-distance training with race-pace training and everything else. Muscular development must also be taken into account with aerobic development and everything else.

/end

aerobicc wrote:

800 dude, I agree that zone training tends to be reductionist and I'm not a big fan of that. But a few questions for you...

Can you elaborate on how MP improves your lactate threshold? That's not clear to me. And what do you mean by aerobic homeostasis?

If you can't improve V02 max in a trained athlete, then what's the purpose of running at 3K pace in workouts? Neuromuscular coordination?

I'm curious what your HM pace is.

Vo2 max cannot be improved obviously. no need for if for that. Vo2 output is a different thing. but still what's your HM time?

By aerobic homeostasis, I mean that at MP you've started to "embarrass" your aerobic system, so the anaerobic system starts to make a measurable contribution, and muscle oxygenation starts to decrease somewhat. Essentially, your aerobic system is actually starting to get stressed. Running at these paces is great aerobic training, which "pushes" your LT up.

Obviously you can also increase LT by increasing your total anaerobic capacity. The problem with too much running right at LT is that it has actually been shown to DECREASE your anaerobic capacity, which means that, while you might be running the same pace as before, with a lower blood lactate level, you aren't able to accelerate to the blood lactate level that corresponded with your previous LT. Or, rather, you are, but that lactate level is actually supra-threshold now, so you'll blow up quickly.

As for 3k paced work, I'm inclined to think that the benefits are (1) neuromuscular, (2) anaerobic (depending on the structure of the workout), and (3) psychological. All three are really important if you're racing shorter distances. The psychological component in particular is often overlooked. The kind of pain you experience racing a hard 3k or 5k is so qualitatively different from the pain at the end of a fast finish long run that if you haven't gotten a bit familiar with it, it's very hard to push through.

Which is a higher stress on your aerobic system, 50 miles with all at 7:30 pace or 50 miles with 30 at 6:30 pace? That's a very simplistic view but in the grand scheme training is all about overload. Overload can be viewed in a micro or macro sense.

During a period of building up miles (summer/winter typically) you are trying to improve your stamina and endurance. The marathon pace run is very similar to a tempo run only longer. So in terms of workouts you could alternate long and short tempos. You could also run many of your runs with a portion at marathon or tempo pace. You could do this near daily for infinity depending of course on how hard and how long.

Back when I was running 100-120 miles a week most of my "base" was built this way. I would say 4-5 days a week had something that was more than easy jogging but not so hard I couldn't do it again tomorrow.

Stop complicating things. Running is simple. People write books to make money. Remember that.

Alan

Love your posts Alan. And though I've never been the runner you are, or the OP, I want to second, your first post on this thread; my favorite training runs are the progressive ones that start comfortable and end near all out.