Training for 5k and 10k with the Van Aaken method ?

of course!

I had a Van Aaken book back in the 70's I seem to remember the turn off being that you hardly at any food.

I also remember him saying that you should train like kids play: which really meant a lot of fartleck because kids ran, stopped, ran with no set distance.

It was also heavy mileage.

Harold Norpoth was his main pupil and was SKINNY.

Here are a couple old threads with samples of Norpoth's training. In the second on the actual training doesn't show up until the end of the thread.

I wrote an article about van Aaken a few years back that turned up in Marathon and Beyond. It had samples of some training he had a couple 10k types doing. I'll dig around and see if I can find it and maybe post it but that's not certain.

You should know that much of what turned up in "The van Aaken Method" was theoretical. Norpoth ran nowhere near the mileage recommended in the book for a 5,000 runner and managed Olympic silver on it. The guys I have in mind did run much more than Norpoth but weren't really doing anything extraordinary fro the time. Similarly, the diet stuff also was somewhat theoretical.

Thank you guys.

The article I wrote went down in a computer crash and while I still have the magazine that it appeared in I haven't been able to find it. But the guy I'm thinking of who van Aaken coached who maybe was his most successful 5-10km guy aside from Norpoth was Roland Waschke who represented West Germany internationally in the late 50s-early 60s. I had a nice sample of Waschke's training which I can summarize but not give details for.

He did a lot more miles than Norpoth. He probably did get to the range of 30km a day with a LOT more of it interval work than people would imagine if they just read "The van Aaken Method" or some of the articles about him that came out in the 70s. I recall a steady morning run in the 10-20 km range and then an evening session of things like 25 x 400 in 75 or so with a 400 recovery or maybe a comparable session of 1000s. Raschke could run 10km in the mid 29:00s so the reps were all slower than race pace. It's really bugging me now that I can't find that stuff anymore.

I believe he also coached Christa Valensiek (sp?) to a women's WR in the marathon.

Carl Spackler wrote:

I believe he also coached Christa Valensiek (sp?) to a women's WR in the marathon.

One coach generation removed.

It was Manfred Steffny who coached Christa Vahlensieck. Steffny was a Van Acken disciple.

Manfred Steffney coached Vahlensiek. Van Aaken coached Steffney. Van Aaken did coach Liane Winter to a women's marathon WR.

I feel the "Van Aaken Method" will work for any distance (probably better suited to longer distances, but will work for all). The problem lies in the fact that it is not a fast fix. Depending where you are in your running/training life would allow to run your 800 pace for 1500, your 5000 pace for 10000, etc. This is the simple answer (not as simple to achieve). Give it an honest effort and you will be both surprised and rewarded for your efforts.

Thank you guys for the useful answers.

HRE - Any success locating the article or issue of Marathon and Beyond

runnerboy1 wrote:

HRE - Any success locating the article or issue of Marathon and Beyond

Gee, I think I found it and then forgot why I'd been looking for it. Let me try to think where I found it and post it. Bump this thread in a day or so if I don't post on it again.

Here's what you're looking for. It's not from my article per se but from the earliest US reference to EvA. It's from an early 60s issue of Track Technique which I referenced for my own article. This was before anyone knew Norpoth. I don't know what became of Forche. Watschke did represent West Germany internationally:

Since the year 1928 when I watched Paavo Nurmi at the Amsterdam Olympics warm up for two hours before a race, it has been clear to me that modern civilized man is not lacking in speed but in endurance. This one thing then, is necessary for all runners--to acquire the quality of endurance at the very outset and then to fight daily to keep it. In my opinion, one can't start this endurance training early enough in life, because according to my own observations, it is just children who are born long distance runners. What children do badly are such exertions as bicycling for speed, weightlifting or sprinting. On teh other hand, any healthy boy or girl is able to run as much as three miles at a moderate pace. The play of children is nothing more than a long distance run because in a couple hours of play they cover many kilometers with several hundred pauses.

The play of children is the primal form of interval training. I arrived at this conclusion after taking into consideration the training methods of the top German runners such as Herbert Schade, Paul Schmidt, Friedel Stracke, Werner Lueg, and many others. I also train my own club's runners according to these principles. As the result of this training, the boy and girl athletes of my club, which by the way is located in a village of 7,000 inhabitants, had the best average times at 600, 1500, and 3,000 meters of any representatives of West Germany. One of my useful runners, edgar Forche, became the German Youth Champion in the 1500 meters run with a time of 3:59.9. None of my good runners has any talent for the sport, but through much training which was only of the endurance variety, they have become excellent performers.

Edgar Forche, for example, ran daily in the forest last winter after school. His workout consisted of 5x3000 meters in a time of between 11 and 13 minutes. Very seldom did he do any sprinting. Later though, he was so fast that he was able to do 400 meters in about 0:49.5. When our best long distance runner, Roland Watschke, (who also had no ability) started with me he did the 5,000 meters in about 18 minutes and the 10,000 in around 40 minutes. At the outset, he stuck to speedwork, much to my regret. He frequently did 10x200 meters in 29-30 seconds and did not better himself at all. It was only when he took my advice and finally changed his training that any improvement was made. He now ran in his workouts 20x1000meters at the slow pace of 3:10 to 3:20 with walking intervals of 200 meters, or he would do 30x600meters in 1:45-1:50. At no time did he do any sprinting. As a result, he quickly improved his 5,000 meter time in one year from 16:23 to 15:18 and his 10,000 meter time from 33:48 to 31:57. His training distances now became longer, for the most part, so that at a workout he would do 5x3,000 meters, plus 40x400 meters, the latter at 70-75.

As a consequence, Watschke improved in the next year from15:18 to 14:46 in the 5,000--and then in the last year to 14:14.6! At the 3,000 meter distance he attained 8:12, although he has not actually done any sprint training in the last year. Frequently, though, he has runs sets of 30x100 meters in 14 seconds each with his clubmates, Muller-Wesel. His basic training however, consisted of daily long distance runs totalling about 20 kilometers.

The present training of Watschke who has again joined my club will have somewhat the following look: In the mornings, starting at 5:45, he does 15 minutes of exercise (calisthenics), followed immediately by an easy warmup of 10-12 kilometers. His occupation busies him from 8:00am until 5 in the evening. from 5:30 until 8:30 p.m. he usually does the following: 5x3000 meters in the forest at a pace between 10 and 12 minutes with a three minute walking interval between each. Then he does 20x500 meters with a pickup in the pace from around the 300 meters mark. Each of these is done in about 1:30. Next he does 2x200 meters in around 29 seconds, and finishes with 3 kilometers of warming down running. With this training schedule, which amounts to 35-40 kilometers per day, we hope to bring Watschke under 14 minutes for the 5,000 and to get him down to

(HERE SOME OF THE COPY AT THE MARGINS DOESN'T SHOW)

runs when he performs at the appropriate constant speed, and h...the 400 meters in a way that there is no oxygen debt whatsoever. Applying the Waldniel method...training, we maintain that endurance is the most important factor in long distance running an...which besides endurance stress too much muscular development, such as weight lifting...gymnastics, and sprinting (which are used percentagewise less) do not increase the capillarie...the muscles which are so imprtant for the middle and long distance runner, but only increase... the strength which is wholesome for short stretches and is only a hinderance in long ones...

The true all-around runners are slim and graceful and still enormously speedy (Zimny...Pirie, Iharos, and some other ones), and these runners are toward the end of the run—in the...second half of the race—always stringer than their strong muscled counterparts. Thus Iharos...while making his 13:40.6 5,000 world record ran the last 1,000 meters in 2:33.6, a speed wh...many a muscular runner can't match on account of the overdevelopment of his muscles. At the marathon run the shortest and lightest one with the greatest heart pumping capacity, namely Popov, USSR, was also the speediest. The strong and muscular sprinter has received from nature a one sided gift, namel, speed and speed alone. But under different circumstances this ve...hinders the development of endurance and that is paradoxically the reason why the speeiest 100 meter runner is hardly ever the speediest when the distance goes over 400 meters.

As far as the examination of the blood of the runners is concerned, there are so many differences among the trained runners that several thousand more chemical analyses will have to be done before coming to solid conclusions. This much can be established from the researches at Waldniel: the uric acid increases after strenuous runsbut more so after short t...after long stretches. The creatine increases in the urine with the sprinters but decreases with long distance runners which means the latter ones are more economical with their valuable substance (creatine phosphoric acid).

As for the diet of the long distance runner, I would like to say, in short, that it is necessary above al to eat little, but such food as is eaten should be of high nutritive value. Counting as ...age the diet of normal people, we find that they consume daily 100grams of fats, 80 grams of protein, and 500 grams of carbohydrates. The athlete, on the other hand, ought to consume daily...grams of carbohydrates, 50 grams of fats, and 200 grams of proteins. The protein being of high...ritive value, is most essential, and it cannot be replaced by plant proteins. It is best taken in the form of milk protein, egg protein, and lean meat Slender runners who lose weight easily may drink beer, but otherwise alcohol can in no way be recommended. Additionally, vitamin tablets containing all the vitamins (particularly B and C) which are soluble in water, are to be recommended. The activity of gymnastics has its place only to correct the weknesses of the body, to strengthen the leg and abdomen muscles. The sprinter needs special gymnastics, and only...runner up to 400 meters is able to—and should incorporate weightlifting and strength exercises into his training. A sprinter should run five kilos a day in forests; a middle distance runner up to 15 kilos, and a 10,000 meter runner should do forest running up to 30 kilos. A marathon runner should on nice spring days even touch 80 kilos. Only the athlete who runs daily, modestly, without touching his reserves, and who east little but well will ever become a good runner.

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Thanks - if you do find the original, please post! Not much is information is out there on Roland Watschke.

That is the original. As I said, it appeared in 1962 in Track Technique and that's the complete article. I referenced it in the article I wrote about EvA. By original, do you mean my article?

Van Aaken sure liked to contradict himself.

Maybe. But at least he bothered to explain himself. did you have a point or just feel the urge to write something useless?

the whole conception is just terrible. what is the essence? self-chastisement. running sessions like 5x3000m plus 40x400m is bitterly disappointing. consider the effort/effectiveness-relationship.

The "essence" is the same as for any other training method; create an overload and recover from it. The 3,000 repeats were anywhere from 2 to 4 minutes slower than race pace with a five minute walk after each and were done in a forest. That's really more like a 15 km run done in over an hour with walking mixed in. It seems pretty pleasant to me. The 400 session was pretty standard fare for the time but again, done away from the track and in a pretty low stress way. I don't see much self-chastisement there and if you were Watschke and saw your 10,000 time drop from around 40 minutes to under 30 at a time when sub 30 made you an international class runner I think you'd be far from feeling disappointment.

A lot of what EvA seemed to do was to take what we might regard as a moderately fast steady run and break it into segments reducing the overall stress but keeping the running at a somewhat quicker pace. He typically ran 10 km in an hour each night after work. But it was not done at a steady 6 minute per kilometer/10 minute per mile pace. It was at a faster pace interrupted with walks but with the overall time for the run and walks totalling an hour. Obviously though, if you think the concept is terrible you obviously should do something else.