Help me learn! Nordic Skiing/Running racers question

Well now, let's not get too emotionally invested or intellectually curious about one person's opinion. "Tight muscles fire faster" sounds like bs on the face of it, but everyone's got some opinion about something, so I would just smile and nod as it goes in one ear, and out the other.

Long time skier-runner and youth coach for 10 years.

That's a good question. Indeed stretching isn't emphasized as much in Nordic skiing as it is in running, and the warm up routine you describe isn't too far off of what everyone does. I did attend some USST development camps back in the day and with dryland training such as for circuit traiing/weight sessions we'd do some stretching prior. And as a youth coach we might do some yoga or pilates routines before some sessions, but not stretching or dynamics like with running.

Co56 wrote:

Long time skier-runner and youth coach for 10 years.

That's a good question. Indeed stretching isn't emphasized as much in Nordic skiing as it is in running, and the warm up routine you describe isn't too far off of what everyone does. I did attend some USST development camps back in the day and with dryland training such as for circuit traiing/weight sessions we'd do some stretching prior. And as a youth coach we might do some yoga or pilates routines before some sessions, but not stretching or dynamics like with running.

Actually stretching is no longer a thing. There's some room for it, say dynamic before exercise. But the old HS PE-type saying of 'stretch or you will get injured' days are gone.

I wouldn't dare to say it is emphasized in running. Not nowadays.

Co56 wrote:

I did attend some USST development camps back in the day and with dryland training such as for circuit traiing/weight sessions we'd do some stretching prior. And as a youth coach we might do some yoga or pilates routines before some sessions, but not stretching or dynamics like with running.

Was that back in the day when we were told to do lots of static stretching before doing a workout?

Not to break your balls, but what is accepted has changed.

This is how a lot of the pros warm up. This is a rigorous warmup that most HS skiers and some college skiers would consider a workout. But it is what they need to do to be ready to hammer 10-15k races.

For a beginner in nordic, a slow 15-20min warmup, similar to running, is a good place to start. Next, also similar to running, pickups. If it is a skate race, run through the different forms (V2, V2alt, V1) at a 15s sprint. If the race is classic, run through those forms (striding, d-pole).

As for stretching, your daughter will have to find out what works for her. Test this before workouts instead of races. Some racers do, some don't. If she does stretch, I'd go towards mobility/dynamic stretches used in running.

If it is a classic race, leave some extra time in there before start to make adjustments to the kickwax (more or less kick to be added).

John Clendon wrote:

[quote]Co56 wrote:

I did attend some USST development camps back in the day and with dryland training such as for circuit traiing/weight sessions we'd do some stretching prior. And as a youth coach we might do some yoga or pilates routines before some sessions, but not stretching or dynamics like with running.

Was that back in the day when we were told to do lots of static stretching before doing a workout?

Not to break your balls, but what is accepted has changed.

[quote]

Like I said this was back in the day, 80s and early 90s. The coaching I did was more recent. As I said, stretching NOT emphasized, although we did pilates when it was too cold to ski.

as an aside I think you're an upstate NYer. I bet we raced at one time. I wonder who busted whose.

Thanks for the input and the link!

Haven't done static stretching before a race or hard workout in at least 10 years myself-- form drills and dynamic movements have been an important of my kid's running development. So far, so good.

I figured there had to be a pre-race routine sort of like running, we are figuring it out as we go.

Any advice transitioning from ski season to track? Last year she didn't run a step during the winter, on skis 3-5x's per week and she dropped 30 seconds from her mile time. Do high school/college runners/skiers run some during the winter or just focus entirely on the skiing?

Thanks again

Here's a somewhat similar approach/workout used for warmup/cooldown from the same online resource...

I'm a former female collegiate skier. I knew many others who wouldn't run a step during the Winter, but personally, I've always found that I ski faster when I'm running and I run faster when I'm skiing. For example, during cross country and track I would always get out on my roller skis at least once a week, and during ski season I would run at least 2 miles every other day.

My first season skiing in high school I didn't run at all during the Winter. Once track started my legs were just so muscular and I wasn't used to it- it made the first month on the track miserable. I think that's why I prefer running at least a little.

Good luck to your daughter and have fun!

Thanks for the input!

We are having a lot of fun- ski practice is way more fun than running practice... Her confidence is growing every week and we are very proud of her. This week: paint ball biathalon!

The roller skis are a blast. Her club practices a couple times a week in the summer and we would tool around the neighborhood a couple times a week just because it's fun. Thank you for your advice about the running during the ski season- I will keep it in mind as she gets further along.

Getting involved in Nordic has been extremely positive so far- much more enjoyable compared to youth indoor track meets. She takes off with her friends at practice, I'm take the little ones for a spin on a short course; when she comes back she needs to teach me the drills she learned that day. I love it!

skate skiing is a blast. it's tough to get down but if you have any sort of skiing or probably ice skating background it's not bad. i haven't done much classic but i love skate skiing since you can pretty easily keep your HR up towards a tempo effort for an hour or two at a time and feel fresh when you're done. easy to get huge volume with relatively minimal impact. one thing i found i needed to watch out for - make sure to alternate your strong side in v1. i found that after a week of skiing my hips and glutes felt a bit imbalanced due to using the same side on all harder climbs an such. for balance and also so you don't tire out as quick and can adapt to different trail camber, make sure to practice on both sides.

Congrats on having a daughter be successful in the sport. I realize it may not be a popular opinion around here, but nordic is great.

I never got into it myself other than some cross training, but used to train with a group of nationally competitive skiers. It's a fantastic lifelong sport at any level.

As far as the pre-race routine, I'd leave it between your daughter and her coach unless she specifically asks you. Even then, I'd probably defer to the coach. I don't think anything he's saying is going to hurt her in any way, even if it may not be correct. The reason I say this is that if he's a part of this respected development group, he probably knows what he's doing on the whole. You don't want to plant the seeds of doubt in him in your daughter's mind over something this minor. Once she starts questioning one aspect of his training, she may start questioning the rest and that won't lead to anything good.

Good luck!

Warm up is not the same thing as stretching. Warm up is essential, stretching is not - and it might even hurt performance if done wrong.

Nowadays existing research pretty much agrees on that (long) static stretching before hard exercise a) impairs power output, and b) impairs economy of movement.

Instead, dynamic warm up drills might be a good idea to activate sport-specific mobility etc.

My perspective-was a national class skier, and journeyman runner in HS/College from 1977 to about 1985, Was present at the "birth" of skate skiing as a racing technique. When I started my career, nobody did it, when I finished, everyone did. I last skied in a race about a decade ago-no longer live in a climate where it's easy to train everyday for skiing. I'm now an avid hobbyjogger in my 50s.Nordic skiing is not completely analogous to long distance running-it's more fartleky-if that's a word. Go hard on the uphills, recover on the downhills. Nordic skiing is a power-endurance sport. Long Distance Running is more endurance focused. The difference between skate skiing and classic is also interesting-skate is more full body, and less of an opportunity to rest on the flats. Classic lets you double pole on the flats, and double-pole with a kick, or diagonal on gentle grades. This lets you use different muscles during different portions of the race. Skating is more upper body focused and less fartleky than classic-it's also a lot faster. I always thought running was a good way to keep spring in my legs during ski season. With classic technique, it's similar muscles to running-but enough different that the running can help. With skating, I found it was a LOT of different muscles than running. I think the running is a good way to cross train for skiing-but it only contributes to success-it can't replace more full body training necessary for skiing. The aerobic and anaerobic engine from skiing really helps running, but I think leg speed can suffer from the skiing. Skiers nowadays are built more like linebackers than they were in the 80s-because the skating technique is a more upper body "core" dependent sport than is running or classic skiing The cat who led the Boston Marathon for the first 6 miles or so a couple years back was an NCAA national ski champ. I bet he outweighed everyone else in the top 100 of the race by 30 pounds.I'm not sure about the stretching bit-I think it's a little bit of a fashion right now to not stretch-it was a fashion in 1980 to stretch a lot. Extremism in any endeavor is probably not good. I had a coach back 30 years ago who would say "Does the lion stretch before he captures his prey?" He was unusual in 1983 in not advocating stretching.Stretching in the cold to me is not a concern. When you're moving-even at 10 below if clothed properly, your muscles are not cold. Unlike running outside in the warm months, you can't warm up and then goof around outside for 20 minutes-you need to warm up, get a dry shirt on, and get in the warming hut, or the bus and do some stretching if that's what you want to do. Keeping aware of the cold, and keeping warm is an important part of saving energy on race day. The other big difference between running and skiing is the impact of "technique" on skiing. Someone with a great motor who has lousy technique will suffer. Running is a little more forgiving of bad form. In this area, I would say skiing is more like swimming than running. I had a high school rival who was a state 2 mile running champ-could beat me in that event by 30 or 40 seconds-and to this day can beat me in a marathon by 20 minutes. But I owned him on skis because I skied everyday, and he lived in Denver and only skied on weekends-and his technique suffered. Best of luck to you and your daughter. It's a great sport, and you are lucky to live in a place where you can embrace it.

Great stuff- thanks!

I really wanted to get her into a routine pre- race. Her club coaches go in different directions and I wanted something for her to focus on other than asking me what time it was every two minutes. Increasing intensity during warm up makes sense- I didn't know how "warmed up" you needed to be so we are heading in the right direction.

I've never contradicted anything the coaches say in front of my kid or with anyone else for that matter. This is the beauty of posting anonymously here... I'm getting the feedback I need to learn more.

I've been in coaching biz on the running side for a long time and appreciate what they are doing with her. I have too much respect for what they do and what they've accomplished.

Her skate technique is improving- she needs to land on a flatter ski and ride it a little longer- she's pushing off her inside edge rather than sking. She thought there was a defect in her boot because her inside ankle was getting sore- no prob w the boot- one photo of her in action showed what's causing the pain....

It seems like the effort for shorter races/workouts is a lot like 800m on the track-- would someone who skis shorter events go into the spring better prepped for mid-d events?

We are very fortunate to be where we are- the program is great, she's having fun- I groomed a trail around our house, I was at work all day yesterday, she spent a couple hours tooling around it on her own for fun-- she's hooked. My two younger ones chase her around- its great.

Thanks again!