Wall Street Journal feature calls Bill Aris "the Lombardi of teen running"

Who?

Mr. Owl wrote:

Who?

Lombardi was a fairly successful NFL football back in the 60s. He should be honored to be compared to a legend like Aris.

Monkeys typing wrote:

Mr. Owl wrote:

Who?

Lombardi was a fairly successful NFL football back in the 60s. He should be honored to be compared to a legend like Aris.

Lombardi was an NFL football? I didn't know that.

A serious question about "recruiting," NOT an accusation, as I don't know the NY HS sports culture nor anything specific about the FM program.

In my area (a major metro in the midwest), it is well-known which school programs have elite coaches and elite teammates. Some of these schools are private, some are public. Even at the public ones, there is a magnet effect... really talented kids tend to seek out certain programs so they will get the benefits.

Parents can decide to move in to a district to reap the benefits of a well-established program. I know of one elite female here who was a state champ at her previous school in another state and her parents chose their new living location partially as a result of the high school's past cross country success. I have seen it happen here. Does anyone know if this is common at FM?

From the outside, I would say at this point it is likely the program recruits people into the district for itself. I think this is largely true of many great programs in running and other sports. It is clear Aris is an excellent coach and runs a great program. It just might mean that FM has more talented runners in a student body size that wouldn't otherwise occur normally.

What really makes me wonder if this is true is the way his teams continually display high levels of talent. Yes, the WSJ article talked about how he often doesn't have an elite #1, but let's face it, just about any kid who is top 25 at NXN is something special genetically. You just don't usually see such a rich pool of talent in one high school so consistently, and it makes me wonder if it truly is a random genetic smattering that Coach Aris pulls from.

Again, this is all intellectual meandering. I'm curious if others know more or have thoughts about this.

RacingtheCantaloupe wrote:

Parents can decide to move in to a district to reap the benefits of a well-established program. I know of one elite female here who was a state champ at her previous school in another state and her parents chose their new living location partially as a result of the high school's past cross country success. I have seen it happen here. Does anyone know if this is common at FM?

if it were common, then you would have heard about it.

i think they lost one of their best runners to pitsford mendon or somewhere, this year or last.

Not sure, but I know that a significant number of their runners keep coming from the same families. Ex. Nick, Olivia, Pete, and Sophia Ryan.

I like the way you don't let the fact that you have absolutely no clue interfere with you making totally random, stupid guesses. Bravo..

"I like the way you don't let the fact that you have absolutely no clue interfere with you making totally random, stupid guesses. Bravo.."

It's not a random guess. If you know specifics about the FM program I would ask that you share them so that my question can be answered. I have seen that a few schools in my area have de facto recruitment by the strength of their programs, and they only have regional reputations, not national ones. To ask if FM has become a "destination district" is a legitimate question. I might add that becoming a destination district is perfectly legal and ethical.

Furthermore, I stand by my assertion that a school of 1500 would have a difficult time being so prominent nationally for so long--nine girls titles in a row-- if pulling from a truly random genetic pool. York High School has an enrollment of 2,600 students, and many other top schools have even more than that. If Aris truly is pulling from a random pool of 1500 high schoolers, he is doing a truly phenomenal job.

Several things are clear-- FM's training methods, team philosophy, and consistency are admirable. I am simply trying to figure out if, much like Wetmore's mystique at Colorado acts as a de facto recruiter before he ever makes a phone call, Aris's program at FM acts similarly.

If no one responds here that it does, then I'll be one step closer to knowing how FM does it. Not everyone who comes on here asking questions is a troll looking to tear down a program.

There is no difference, absolutly none, between Aris and thousands of other great coaches in America. He certainly has built something great and has developed a team culture. But there is no magic training, no magic coaching.

Will aris end up at a college?

Oh C'mon, we all know why Bill Aris is such a "good coach", the same reason w/ all the other top HS programs, population and mileage

First off, many of these top schools come from places w/ a high population count so that's obviously an advantage considering you have more to pull from, plus when students see the success the team is having they're more likely to try it out (now you have even more to pull from), and then some students from other local schools might even transfer to such school because they want to be part of the program... Take a small school of 750 people, that's where I came from, it would be kind of hard to pull 5 elite studs compared to a school like Carmel out of Indiana that has 6000 kids...

And oh yeah, the other thing, the big thing, MILEAGE! Bill Aris has these guys doing very high mileage, especially for just HS aged kids, with the girls doing 75-80mpw and the guys doing 90-95mpw, that's ridiculous, how much are these kids supposed to improve in college? When you have kids doing mileage like this, assuming they can stay injury free of course they are going to make a huge jump, make huge gains, run fast times, but only for so long...

I think it's great that he got a boys and girls team to both win NXN, but don't forget the conditions that are rarely ever taken into account...

FM is not a school of 6k kids, they have the same talent pool that any upper middle class suburban school has.

Skeptic, you obviously have no idea what you are talking about.

FM had one of the smallest school enrollments of all the teams at nxn.

Mr. Aris, despite the accusations, does not have his teams run mega mileage and i should know since i was one of them in the recent past. Our small team wouldn't have made it through the season much less win states and nxn if he ran us into the ground. He knows what he is doing in training and how to motivate us to be our best. We also have had lots of fun while doing it. It continues to amaze me how some people just can't believe this and continue to come up with their own b.s. reasons for our success. Your mileage numbers are simply insane. The secret? Live clean healthy lives, work hard in school and running, and have fun while doing it. Pretty controversial, huh?

Re college running for our graduates, it is up to the kids and our college coaches to continue or improve upon what we have done in high school. Maybe the scrutiny should be put on the overall coaching and training we are getting in college instead of what we are doing while in high school.

Another point, we are mostly average level athletes who have done above average things as high school teams. Some of us have got what it takes to be high level college runners (ie d1 ncaa's), but the rest of us do the best we can with the coaching we get while getting the most out of our college educations.

You can try to minimize what Mr. Aris has done for us as our coach, and you (and others) can come up with b.s. reasons why we have been successful in high school, but it just shows how little you really know. Then again, how could you, you are not one of us obviously.

Thrust into Pain, what is typical mileage there?

A couple of questions for those that are around fm. My experience has shown me that those areas where youth running or just running in general is popular tends to lead to greater success of the hs program. If the kids come into hs already running, and have experience it is a great help to the program.

So is fm a k-12 school that allows the younger ages to compete or train with the team?

Ran at FM, just chiming in to correct the usual complaints.

FM is a "small" large school. Check wikipedia for exact enrollment but they're on the smaller end of the largest NY class. More importantly, FM doesn't have a running culture. Girls get better numbers but nothing impressive. The guys routinely top out at 15-30 guys (when I was there a few years ago we struggled to field a full JV team). I can remember one 8th grader training with the team and don't think it happens often.

The mileage thing is always overblown. They're an incredibly successful program and obviously not running 30mpw, but they're also not running high mileage except for outlier scenarios where Aris was able to keep someone healthy for 4 years and felt they could handle it. I never broke 70mpw FWIW.

Finally, and I'm not an Aris homer, there is a bit of "magic" at FM. There is a reason there are little details on FM's training and Bill often struggles to convey the specifics of their training. The actual running is secondary to how he prepares kids mentally. Sounds hokey, but he truly transforms the mind and body of his teams.

Along with every other NY state public school, FM has a junior high program (called 'modified') for most sports. Modified teams are for 7th and 8th graders only. Modified cross country is a very basic very low volume intro course to learning how to run, with a de-emphasis on competition even though they 'race' a 1.5 mile distance preceding most varsity dual meets.

Modified practices are not conducted with the varsity practices and are totally separate by design. Even though Aris basically runs the whole show, he has his modified coaches run their own program with his guidance as needed. This is the same as every modified team (football soccer, lacrosse, etc) in the school and the state.

On rare occasion, Aris and his modified assistants will identify an unusually advanced 8th grader who might get more out of varsity running than modified and will offer to 'move them up' but only if the kids and parents want to. This is in line with the NYS rules for junior high athletes and applies to all sports.

Almost always though, they start varsity running upon entering the high school in 9th grade. When they get to varsity running, they start their training at the level they can and/or want to handle based on age, ability, training experience, and desire. They progress thru high school based upon the same criteria.

Several of the kids seen at states and nxn come thru the program starting in 7th or 8th grade. Some of the kids come from other sports somewhere along the line. Some of the kids come into it totally new while in high school never having done anything before in another sport. The varsity teams each year are really a mix coming from a variety of circumstances and backgrounds.

lookdeeper wrote:

A couple of questions for those that are around fm. My experience has shown me that those areas where youth running or just running in general is popular tends to lead to greater success of the hs program. If the kids come into hs already running, and have experience it is a great help to the program.

So is fm a k-12 school that allows the younger ages to compete or train with the team?

The FM district's two middle schools (grade 7 & 8) do have track and cross country programs. Aris is listed in the coaching staff directory for both, though I would expect that day to day training is local to the schools and under the direct supervision of the local coach. I doubt this is uncommon among schools with historically strong programs.

I have a cousin that attends F-M, and I've competed against F-M in my years I attended another public school in the Syracuse area. What Aris claims in the interview above, about him leaving the kids the option to train over the summer with the team or not, aka "open practices," is true. My cousin is friends with many of the team members there today (Bryce Millar, Peter Ryan, etc.) and she says that they enjoy running and racing because of the freedom he creates during practice, and leaving many workouts open-ended, and letting the kids decide what they want to do/feel like doing. Also, his knowledge of the specifics of training is passed down to the athletes, such as training paces and certain things many coaches keep to themselves, so they are armed with the knowledge of how to get faster, and look to Aris more as a motivational figure rather than a boss or slave driver of a coach.

I trained at Green Lakes state park with my team, where many other teams, including F-M, trained during cross country. Out of probably 50 times my team has gone there and seen the F-M crew, only one or two times have I caught Bill timing hill intervals or making his athletes work super hard. Most of the times, they are simply jogging hills or running around the lakes for miles and miles, at a slower than tempo pace.

I think the advantage F-M has over other teams is Aris's source for inspiring the kids to run fast and hard during workouts, but also allows the athletes to listen to their bodies and take that easy day or cross training day, while other coaches of the "no excuses" mentality would drive them like slaves regardless of how tired or sore his or her athletes are. I know for a fact that he attacks training with his athletes from a more mental standpoint than physical.

This still doesn't explain why they do not come out and wreak havoc in D1 track and cross, and in the interview linked above, he denies the claim entirely.