FM SWEEPS NXN BOYS & GIRLS!

Good to see the boys finally get it done after having some near misses over the years.

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quite the accomplishment.

congrats.

Plus the Liverpool boys finished just 3 places behind FM. Great showing for them also.

And none of them will run well in college

pools #2 had off day, would have been on podium

New York, New York wrote:

Good to see the boys finally get it done after having some near misses over the years.

Great team effort. #1 guy had his worst race of the year by far and they still won handily!

ghjghjghgh wrote:

And none of them will run well in college

Please define this. I hear this all the time, but I think people don't realize just how hard it is for anyone to do well at the NCAA d1 level. If your expecting any of these kids to finish as an NCAA top 100 finisher than you don't understand the difference between college and high school.

I guarantee if you compare how their schools graduates do compared to other high schools graduates they will still be one of the top 3-4 teams.

We are not expecting them to win NCAAs, but at least do better individually than they did in high school. But as we have found year after year, especially with the girls, Aris pretty much breaks his runners down by the time they are high school seniors and quit college running shortly after their first year. But hey, as long as making an eighth grader run 80 miles a week is allowed, there will always be replacements.

Siras wrote:

We are not expecting them to win NCAAs, but at least do better individually than they did in high school. But as we have found year after year, especially with the girls, Aris pretty much breaks his runners down by the time they are high school seniors and quit college running shortly after their first year. But hey, as long as making an eighth grader run 80 miles a week is allowed, there will always be replacements.

Name one 8th grader who runs 80 per week. Name a name. Just one. If it's so commonplace it shouldn't be hard.

Fun test; rescore all of FM's national title wins without using any runners who ran at all before 9th grade. Guess how many they lose?

There's a huge difference between what Aris does and burning girls out. I wouldn't say I'm a huge fan of the program but I did come from NY, so I do have a bit of pride in them winning NXNs, as a disclaimer.

All he does is develop the girls (and guys) to as close to their ceiling as possible. He does this through two methods: obviously training them hard, and having them totally buy into a diet, sleep, etc. lifestyle that almost no other teams or HS students do on a national level. Those little things give them a big edge.

If I had run for FM in high school, I might have run two minutes faster at Bowdoin Park (site of NXN NY/NE regional meet) than I actually did running for my HS program (which was a very great experience for me). But then I probably don't have improve as much as I did in college because I was already close to that level. FM's top girl ran 18:35 today, she probably only runs 20:00 running for almost any other program. So what's the difference between a girl going from 20:00 > 19:25, and a girl that goes from 19:25 > 19:25? You still end at the same place.

People also fail to realize that there is a lot of horrible coaching on even the Division 1 level. My college's girls coach, who has recruited FM girls in the past, present, and future (because he loves "splashes"), is an absolutely horrible coach and his teams rarely if ever run up to their potential. Throw in dealing with garbage cafeteria food, late study nights, partying, etc., and it's no wonder they fall a little back. The "blame" is both equally everyone's and equally no one's.

The one catch to this is that some of the girls from that program HAVE in fact gone to excellent programs (Villanova, Dartmouth, etc.) and have not had the same success. And I'm not going to say that coach hasn't burned anyone out, because there have been a few. But I knew another coach in a school I competed with, who had some state ranked teams, where his runners would go to D1 or nationally ranked D3 teams and then really blow up and quit early (if they hadn't already in high school). That's burning out.

PS: If you hate the 8th grade rule, FM had no girls on their NXN team under their sophomore year, you have to pass a fitness test to be on a varsity sport as a middle school kid, and don't tell me that kids from other states are not running somewhat competitively before they're in 9th grade. Haters gonna hate.

The truth is that all of the nationally ranked teams and most of the nationally ranked athletes are already doing all that they can to get as close to their ceiling as possible in high school. So it is true that there is often not much upside left for college for a lot of them. This is why there are so many college disappointments. College coaches need to find the hs athletes that are willing to do everything it takes to progress through college, yet their current high school coaches are not asking them to do that everything as teenagers.

Congratulations to Bill Aris, and his program. What was done today is truly remarkable. I cannot think of another example of such dominance in sport. How he goes about it works for the purpose it is intended. A great man, a great coach, well done. NIKE must be truly proud to have him as one of their own. A bright and shining star. Today was history making.

The size of their school has to help.

I coach at a school about 4 times smaller than FM and I have 1 boy who would make their top 5 and another who would crack the top 7.

They train hard and are dedicated. If we have 4 times the students we could possibly challenge them.

I always wondered what the enrollment of the top teams at NXN is.

Liverpool is also very large, as is Saratoga.

How many schools with less than 800 kids compete at that level.

That said- there are other schools as large who can't compete with them.

Their coaching is excellent and the runners deserve credit for their work ethic.

The FM teams have approximately 20-25 runners who show up for practice each year. Per gender. That's been stated in several interviews this weekend, and in many years prior. Of those 20-25, Aris must create 5 (at minimum) national caliber team runners. Perhaps the size of their school doesn't do what you think it might, or might for you at yours. How many kids do you have on your teams each year? Less than 25?

There was some dude on here a few years ago claiming the all ran by themselves and never did a hard workout. Now people are saying 80 mpw?

Where is that guy? What say he?

I was a decent high school runner 420 miler got down to 413 in college. I would have traded improving marginally in college to have been on a high school national championship team. We are not all going to be olympians. At least those kids can enjoy saying they were national champs there whole life.

While many seem to think that the FM runners over train in HS and are burned out by college, I don't think that this is the case. FM runners do not seem to get injured very often, which suggests that they are not being run into the ground. In addition, Aris has said in interviews that he focuses on aerobic development in his athletes, and does little anaerobic work with them. This means that his runners are not doing much stressful speed work. Combining the lack of injuries and intense workouts, and the focus on aerobic development, it would seem that FM runners run relatively high mileage, but not high enough to cause much injury. On a side note, it seems that FM prioritizes cross country season above the track seasons. Their top runners run a few fast times in track, but are not heavily raced, and overall, it seems that they do not push as hard the rest of the year, allowing the runners to rest a bit in preparation for cross country.

I think that departure from the FM program and individual issues are the real causes of the worse than expected performances of FM runners in college. First of all, college is totally different than high school, and many runners decide to make running less of a priority than it was in high school. Even runners who want to do well in college can find themselves sidetracked by distractions or pressured by higher academic standards. I think that this likely has a significant impact on many FM runners, as most of them are not top individuals, but rather, good runners on a great team. This brings up the important point that most of the FM runners are not top talents. They are fast because they train hard and are disciplined, not because they are especially talented. As these runners rise to the college level, talent becomes more important. Without possessing enough talent, these runners have to train hard and remain disciplined. Many of them may find that the training and discipline needed to compete with more talented runners is just not worth it. Unlike top individuals, most FM runners seem to not be interested in becoming a professional runner, which certainly hurts future development. Add to this the fact that they have already achieved greatness in high school, and it seems likely that FM runners are satisfied in their achievements and are ready to move on. Even if they do decide that it is worth it, few, if any, college programs are as disciplined as the FM program, and the training will likely be significantly different than what brought them to such a high level. In addition to the training being insufficient to generate improvement, the team aspect will not be the same. FM is very team oriented, while college is much more individual. For runners used to a close-knit, team focused environment, college may be quite a difference. The change of programs, lack of top talent, and focus on things other than running are the real causes of the apparent under-performance of FM runners in college.

Of course, the performance of FM runners in college may not be an under-performance, but a normal performance. Perhaps what really happened is that they over-performed in high school, and once out of the program, they regress to a more normal level, but still a greater level than they would have reached had they been from a normal HS program, a testament to the effectiveness of the FM program. (cue drug accusations)

A huge component of the FM girls not becoming college superstars is likely mental. The kind of bond you can create with high school teammates, some of whom you may have known you're entire life, since before you started running, who you started running with is not similar to a college team. I know a lot of college teams are very close but there are also plenty of teams that have cutthroat,toxic environments. Or the FM girl shows up at a national caliber DI program and realizes she's the least talented and hardest working athlete on the team. That's not a fun position to be in.