A 4:07 mile after 10 months of running.... as a high school er... his times are amazing but the amount of time it took for him to achieve those times are even more outstanding. How?
A 4:07 mile after 10 months of running.... as a high school er... his times are amazing but the amount of time it took for him to achieve those times are even more outstanding. How?
He was very talented and trained hard. Pretty much the same as any other world beater.
High responder genetically.
Natural talent base was high and with training he improved from there.
He said
I’m probably going to burst everybody’s bubble, but it’s just because I couldn’t do anything else. When you’re cut from the church baseball team, the junior high basketball team, and you can’t make the junior high track and field team…
I’d go to bed at night and I’d say, “Dear God, if you’ve got a plan for my life, I’d appreciate it if you’d show up sooner or later, because it’s not really going very well.” I found myself trying out for the cross-country team and running two miles even though I’d never run that distance before. All of a sudden, I made the team, I got a letter jacket, and I started thinking there’s a girlfriend behind the letter jacket. But that’s how it all began. It really wasn’t because it was my first love. It was more a matter of that’s where I had the success, which was hard at first, because I felt people were invading my privacy. But on the other hand, I was enjoying it and wanted to share it with everyone.
Read more at
thats why his coach was/is regarded as great. he was a swim coach and basically took those workouts and turned them into running workouts. pretty interesting in theory. haven't really heard of anyone else doing it that way before or since without over doing it and burning out.
was also going to mention he was probably one of the greatest responders of all time
still, you can't view Jim Ryun merely as a fantastic talent or high responder, because he had the swimming background that is also a key to Alan Webb's success, and that of quite a few of our other high school talents of that past, like the Mastalir brothers. And then Ryun had this extraordinary training of high mileage through intervals and somehow he was able to withstand it without breaking down or quitting for quite a few years.
Superior leg speed velocity.
How could anything be more obvious?
jjjjjjjj wrote:
still, you can't view Jim Ryun merely as a fantastic talent or high responder, because he had the swimming background that is also a key to Alan Webb's success, and that of quite a few of our other high school talents of that past, like the Mastalir brothers. And then Ryun had this extraordinary training of high mileage through intervals and somehow he was able to withstand it without breaking down or quitting for quite a few years.
Ryun was a swimmer?
Here's an example from his training in 1964, before dropping to 4:01.7 in a relay, 3:59 in June, and 3rd in the 1964 Olympic trials at 1500m: 3M in the morning, afternoon, 10x440y@70 (1:50 rest=3 minutes per 440y covered); weights; 10x440y@69 (1:51 rest=3 minutes/440y); weights; 10x440y@67 (1:53 rest=3 min/440y). That's 10 miles of intervals, plus two sets of weights ranging from 33 to 70 lbs. And that would be 13 miles on the day plus any w/u, c/d, or jogging between 440s or sets. Earlier in the year, he did 40x440 averaging 69 w/90s rest. 110 miles per week in the previous winter. Now, it has to be said that Timmons had upped his training markedly the previous summer in 1963 after he ran the 4:07 at 16. Training initially in Fall 1962, when he ran his first mile in 5:38, consisted of ten to fifteen miles per day, usually with intervals. By 1964, his long run would be fifteen to twenty miles. So, we are talking about an extreme level of training with both massive quantity and considerable intensity for a miler. I say reasonable intensity because in the example above, he was averaging 4:36 mile pace for 40 quarters and he ran a 3:59, which means that his interval pace was something like 5k pace. (he would run 8:25 2M at 19). Milers will often do intervals closer to mile pace, but many fewer. In 1968, he was pushing himself a lot harder, on his own account, and running 20x440y at 60 or 30 at 65, and he injured his hamstring doing hard 110y sprints. Bourne says that by his world record mile in 1967, he had trained 4,000 hours.
The "High Responder" thing just seems like another way of saying he was really gifted. Jim Ryun tells this story that he was a bad runner at first. Nice story but not true.
He starts running with a group of normal high school runners. He has no idea that he is an order of magnitude more talented than them, so his first few races he is not near his potential. Then at some point it clicks mentally that he is different than his teammates, and he makes a sudden improvement. But the improvement has nothing to with responding to training, it was him figuring out how good he was.
jjjjjjjj wrote:
still, you can't view Jim Ryun merely as a fantastic talent or high responder, because he had the swimming background that is also a key to Alan Webb's success, and that of quite a few of our other high school talents of that past, like the Mastalir brothers. ....
He had a "swimming background"? Where did you come up with that idea?
By not being a democrat.
The Sports Gene wrote:
Jim Ryun tells this story that he was a bad runner at first. Nice story but not true.
What?!? Where are you guys coming up with this 'stuff'?!?
Most of your post is poppycock.
Yes, he was an incredible talent, and he had a proclivity for it right away when he started running competitively. However, it took an incredible amount of training to induce the gene expression that led to outlier times. Your post that it just required him to mentally figure that out is ridiculous.
How??? wrote:
A 4:07 mile after 10 months of running.... as a high school er... his times are amazing but the amount of time it took for him to achieve those times are even more outstanding. How?
I agree, the rapid improvement and the stop-watch times WERE amazing.
They did not come from a bunch of long-slow distance training. They did not come from a classical Lydiard periodization plan. The reasons were not just because he started out with an incredible amount of talent. The method of training figured tremendously into both his rapid improvement (the point you were asking about) and the world class times that were eventually produced .
Ryun would have probably been just as good with half the volume. Timmons had no idea where the point of diminishing returns or indeed no more returns at all was.
The presumption is always that the training each athlete does is 100% successful and necessary for them to run the times they did.
let's not forget that Ryun like many others from his day and area were fit from chores unlike the couch potatoes of today. He also did calisthenics between his running sets. He was thin but damn strong
other options wrote:
thats why his coach was/is regarded as great. he was a swim coach and basically took those workouts and turned them into running workouts. pretty interesting in theory. haven't really heard of anyone else doing it that way before or since without over doing it and burning out.
"Interval running, properly applied, is not only scientifically sound, but is also the most efficient and quickest way to bring an athlete up to a high standard. Improperly applied interval training has led to this time-honoured and well-proven system being maligned and blamed for athletes experiencing all kinds of difficulties. This is because careless application of interval running can damage runners. On the other hand, when it is applied intelligently, its results can be nothing short of miraculous. The plain truth about interval running is that it serves the purpose of developing the heart, circulation and muscles better than any other system. Its beauty is that it does so in a fraction of the time required by long slow distance (LSD) training."
~Gordon Pirie
Also don't forget that was the 60's and teenagers just wouldn't do drugs back then, even though they weren't banned from sports yet. It was the drug-free decade. So two-year flash careers like Ryun's are totally beyond suspicion. Nothing but talent.