Would love to see Nick race Centro for 1500m title. And then watch Manzano beat them both!
Would love to see Nick race Centro for 1500m title. And then watch Manzano beat them both!
Yes. He is an 800m runner. They tend to have more speed than 1500m guys
ododk wrote:
Yes. He is an 800m runner. They tend to have more speed than 1500m guys
That's not how it works. The speedier guys only have the advantage in a very, very slow sit-and-kick. You need endurance to have a good kick. Symmonds is great, but I don't see him out-kicking a kicker in a 1500.
We don't really know how much talent he has in the 15/mile though...so that is kind of he wild card.
Would pick symmonds in all but championship races, when the centre sauce is peaking and the acne is at a high. Clear face, can't win
Bring Back the 880 wrote:
ododk wrote:Yes. He is an 800m runner. They tend to have more speed than 1500m guys
That's not how it works. The speedier guys only have the advantage in a very, very slow sit-and-kick. You need endurance to have a good kick. Symmonds is great, but I don't see him out-kicking a kicker in a 1500.
We don't really know how much talent he has in the 15/mile though...so that is kind of he wild card.
I wouldn't call centro a kicker.
The guys has an 800 best of 1:45.86.
rhymes with colt wrote:
Bring Back the 880 wrote:That's not how it works. The speedier guys only have the advantage in a very, very slow sit-and-kick. You need endurance to have a good kick. Symmonds is great, but I don't see him out-kicking a kicker in a 1500.
We don't really know how much talent he has in the 15/mile though...so that is kind of he wild card.
I wouldn't call centro a kicker.
The guys has an 800 best of 1:45.86.
What if his best were, say, 1:44.09? Would that be enough to call him a kicker?
ododk wrote:
Yes. He is an 800m runner. They tend to have more speed than 1500m guys
Lagat was a 1500m runner who had more speed than 10000m specialist Bekele, but still lost to him in what was effectively a sit-and-kick championship 5000m race.
If speed was all that was necessary for victory in a tactical distance race, then by all logic, the 100m-400m specialists should be the ones who are dominating the distance championships. Obviously, that's not the case, which means that even in sit-and-kicks, endurance still has a part.
Since Centro has placed 3rd, 4th, and 2nd in the last 3 major international 1500m championships (all of which were tactical), it is fairly unlikely that Symmonds would be able to beat him in a sit-and-kick. The international 1500m field for men is VERY respectable and deep, and the 1st-3rd place times have ranged from 3:34 - 3:36 in the last 3 major outdoor championships. This means that in a tactical 1500m, he would effectively have to run his PR in order to compete well (and I really doubt that he would have much of a kick left while running at his PR pace).
Seyta wrote:
Lagat was a 1500m runner who had more speed than 10000m specialist Bekele, but still lost to him in what was effectively a sit-and-kick championship 5000m race.
When?
In 2006, Lagat ran a 51 second last lap to beat Bekele in a 5k race. Lagat's time was 12:59.
rhymes with colt wrote:
Seyta wrote:Lagat was a 1500m runner who had more speed than 10000m specialist Bekele, but still lost to him in what was effectively a sit-and-kick championship 5000m race.
When?
In 2006, Lagat ran a 51 second last lap to beat Bekele in a 5k race. Lagat's time was 12:59.
Just realized Berlin WC in 2009 is probably what you were referring to.
ododk wrote:
Yes. He is an 800m runner. They tend to have more speed than 1500m guys
800m runners tend to have poorer kicks than 1500m runners. In fact, much poorer. The only speed that matters is can you run a sub26 at the end of the race. Not many 800m guys do that in the 800m. Imagine how inneffective they are in a 1500m
rhymes with colt wrote:
I wouldn't call centro a kicker.
The guys has an 800 best of 1:45.86.
How does his 800m equate to a kick? it doesn't. What he does at the end of a race is a kick, and he does it very well.
malmo wrote:
ododk wrote:Yes. He is an 800m runner. They tend to have more speed than 1500m guys
800m runners tend to have poorer kicks than 1500m runners. In fact, much poorer. The only speed that matters is can you run a sub26 at the end of the race. Not many 800m guys do that in the 800m. Imagine how inneffective they are in a 1500m
I think that is more training philosophy rather than their actual pinnacle ability when properly trained. in the 800m especially in recent years with the wealth of talent that it has drawn has typically played out in very fast races a la El G in the 1500m, rather than need an amazing kick you would need to be able to run a fast time and kick only slightly at the end and that is what they have trained for and raced like now. where as the 1500m which has also had a wealth of talent has stayed in the sit and kick mentality with most races being decided in the final 200. If a runner like El G was still around very rarely would a kick be what will win you the race rather your ability to run a very fast paced race and hanging on at the end to win and runners would adapt and train for it.
a kick involves speeding up and even slow-starting Symmonds doesn't do that. Other than those joke races that go 55-52 and such.
Hingle McCringleberry wrote:
malmo wrote:800m runners tend to have poorer kicks than 1500m runners. In fact, much poorer. The only speed that matters is can you run a sub26 at the end of the race. Not many 800m guys do that in the 800m. Imagine how inneffective they are in a 1500m
I think that is more training philosophy rather than their actual pinnacle ability when properly trained. in the 800m especially in recent years with the wealth of talent that it has drawn has typically played out in very fast races a la El G in the 1500m, rather than need an amazing kick you would need to be able to run a fast time and kick only slightly at the end and that is what they have trained for and raced like now. where as the 1500m which has also had a wealth of talent has stayed in the sit and kick mentality with most races being decided in the final 200. If a runner like El G was still around very rarely would a kick be what will win you the race rather your ability to run a very fast paced race and hanging on at the end to win and runners would adapt and train for it.
This really has nothing to do with recent years - the 800 has played out pretty much the same way as long as I've been observing the sport. Nor do I believe it has to do with "training".
The only 800 guys who have a kick in the 1500 are true 800/1500 guys. The Coe's/Ovetts etc. The best 1500m kickers will always outkick the 800m guys stepping up. When I was running 1500m I never felt 1:46 guys stepping up were even a remote threat. I'd be more worried about 5000m guys with known kicks stepping down. In fact I can remember one specific 1500 in which Carey Pinkowski and I were running 1-2 and a coach was yelling to his guy from the sidelines (300m to go) "use your 1:46 speed on those guys." It ended up being a funny quote for months after that.
The important thing about kicking, if you can run the final 200m in 26 or better, you'll be competitive in almost any race. I don't think that Symmonds has that ability at the end of a 1500m
Wait.....you weren't worried about 1:46 guys when you raced 1500m? I better look up your 1500m pr because I must be misinformed.
malmo wrote:
Hingle McCringleberry wrote:I think that is more training philosophy rather than their actual pinnacle ability when properly trained. in the 800m especially in recent years with the wealth of talent that it has drawn has typically played out in very fast races a la El G in the 1500m, rather than need an amazing kick you would need to be able to run a fast time and kick only slightly at the end and that is what they have trained for and raced like now. where as the 1500m which has also had a wealth of talent has stayed in the sit and kick mentality with most races being decided in the final 200. If a runner like El G was still around very rarely would a kick be what will win you the race rather your ability to run a very fast paced race and hanging on at the end to win and runners would adapt and train for it.
This really has nothing to do with recent years - the 800 has played out pretty much the same way as long as I've been observing the sport. Nor do I believe it has to do with "training".
The only 800 guys who have a kick in the 1500 are true 800/1500 guys. The Coe's/Ovetts etc. The best 1500m kickers will always outkick the 800m guys stepping up. When I was running 1500m I never felt 1:46 guys stepping up were even a remote threat. I'd be more worried about 5000m guys with known kicks stepping down. In fact I can remember one specific 1500 in which Carey Pinkowski and I were running 1-2 and a coach was yelling to his guy from the sidelines (300m to go) "use your 1:46 speed on those guys." It ended up being a funny quote for months after that.
The important thing about kicking, if you can run the final 200m in 26 or better, you'll be competitive in almost any race. I don't think that Symmonds has that ability at the end of a 1500m
malmo wrote:
The important thing about kicking, if you can run the final 200m in 26 or better, you'll be competitive in almost any race. I don't think that Symmonds has that ability at the end of a 1500m
Reallly? Can someone remind me what Nick ran on the final lap of his 3:36 (which I think was a fast finish) and his 3:34?
Reallly? wrote:
Wait.....you weren't worried about 1:46 guys when you raced 1500m? I better look up your 1500m pr because I must be misinformed.
You're not getting this...No I wasn't. Why would I? If he was a 1500m with equal times who ran 1:46 that would be a different story. Still, finishing a race in 26, which I've done many times, will trump whatever your opponent has done in a shorter race.
A kick is all about what you can do at the end of a race. It is not about what you can do out of the blocks, when tan, rested and ready.
Reallly? wrote:
malmo wrote:The important thing about kicking, if you can run the final 200m in 26 or better, you'll be competitive in almost any race. I don't think that Symmonds has that ability at the end of a 1500m
Reallly? Can someone remind me what Nick ran on the final lap of his 3:36 (which I think was a fast finish) and his 3:34?
I'd like to know too.
So, your 1500m pr is....3:36? 3:38? It can't be any slower than that if you were never worried about 1:46 guys, and if you did 26 at the end many times. I know you wrere a good runner but I guess I know nothing about your 1500m. Forgive me.Also, someone in this thread is trying to compare the last 200m of 800m, WHICH IS NOT VALID, due to the nature of the 800m.
malmo wrote:
Reallly? wrote:Wait.....you weren't worried about 1:46 guys when you raced 1500m? I better look up your 1500m pr because I must be misinformed.
You're not getting this...No I wasn't. Why would I? If he was a 1500m with equal times who ran 1:46 that would be a different story. Still, finishing a race in 26, which I've done many times, will trump whatever your opponent has done in a shorter race.
A kick is all about what you can do at the end of a race. It is not about what you can do out of the blocks, when tan, rested and ready.
malmo wrote:
The important thing about kicking, if you can run the final 200m in 26 or better, you'll be competitive in almost any race. I don't think that Symmonds has that ability at the end of a 1500m
You don't think Symonds could run a 26 in a 3:40+ race???? Symmonds has run 1:42 hasn't he??