Great Job, Ryan Vail...

Excellent post. I agree. Solid 10k on the track this summer too.

outsiderunner wrote:

but I think he should have been more like fifth. Perhaps I am naïve or uninformed, but Vail has all the essentials. I know I saw at least two if not three pre-race 150-mile weeks in his log, and another 140-mile week. Thus, it seems to me that Vail is putting in the work. Just read his bio, and one knows he is obviously talented. He has a prototypical marathoner's physique (short/lean). Why was he not up there with Meb? What I am missing?

I mention these things not--in any way--to denigrate his performance, as ninth in a major marathon is excellent. But what else can Vail do? Is he simply missing the "seasoning" of a marathoner?

Vail seems like a nice guy. I wish him all the best.

Nice guy with talent , coaching sucks though. Its not about the milage its about the quality of what he is doing , its not a game of posting numbers its a strategy of getting the best out of what you do. Lets hope he tries a faster marathon course next time around.

I was pretty disappointed in Vail's performance after following his blog all season. The fact is he lost contact with the main pack before any surges were put in and he should be in better shape than that. A guy who runs a huge volume of tempos at 4:56-4:57 and faster should be able to run 5:10 in a pack even with bad conditions. He's either training too hard/fast or he didn't peak right.

Running 9th in a major is great but the field wasn't deep... he beat Kogo and Kipyego who went for it, got blown up, and jogged it in.

I expect big things from him if his legs can catch up to his training but I'm not optimistic about him ever producing on a world stage.

He needs to train with a group. If he ran with the Hansons, he would be running Brian Sell-like performances.

Andy D: I am thinking along similar lines. To me, Vail has done some serious training. It should have shown in the race. Something is up. He should have been fifth, or even higher.

Interesting point. I do not know the ins and outs of group training, as I do not train with a group or even a training partner, but I gather this could perhaps be a factor, or at least part of the issue.

I was hoping he'd place higher too, but can't say disappointed in his performance - top notch, all things considered.

Having said that, gut feeling is his training and overall schedule is a bit much. That, plus he probably puts a ton of pressure on himself, so it's a it of a performance anxiety issue. In contrast, Meb has absolutely nothing to prove, has massive experience, and he probably has a better training approach. But again, not placing closer to Meb is not exactly a failure.

Honestly, after the whole Jeptoo debacle and the bizarre behavior of people around her afterwards, it's hard not to consider the significant possibility that many of the people above/around Vail are doping. I obviously don't know, and actually don't care all that much, but let's put it this way: if Kipsang, Desisa, Kiprotich, etc came back with a positive sample, I would not be remotely surprised. In contrast, I would be genuinely shocked if Ryan did.

outsiderunner wrote:

He has a prototypical marathoner's physique (short/lean). Why was he not up there with Meb? What I am missing?

Vail is lean yes, but short? I dont think so...he's a head taller than Meb it seems

Vail listed listed as being 5'9". You are right that Vail is a fair amount taller than Meb (Meb is listed at 5'5"), but not a head taller. I am 5'6" and to me 5'9" is tall-ish, but in reality, it is still short of average.

jaybeel--you are preaching to the choir here. I totally agree with your assessment and stance in regard too the PED matter and the current situation. No failure for Vail, God bless him, but based on his talent and training, I saw him staying with the lead pack longer and then sticking with Meb.

To each his own here, I cannot say that you are wrong or "way off" in your view of the race. Perhaps this is just more proof that there is a bad stench at the top of the distance world. Perhaps runner's like Vail are about the only ones who can smell it. And if I were Vail, and if the truth is, indeed, pretty bad, I would be much happier with an honest ninth than a hollow podium.

Yes Vail seems like a nice guy. Yes he did well. Yes I wish him all the best...

...BUT how in the world can you possibly conclude that he should have been able to place higher? He is definitely NOT super talented. His running form is TERRIBLE. He does NOT have a prototypical marathoner's physique...

And even if all those things were different there are tens of thousands of folks for whom the same could be said. Why aren't tens of thousands of Americans placing in the top 5 of major marathons?

Sorry, but your question strikes me as silly. Vail is doing better than most would have expected from him coming out of high school. He is doing better than most would have expected from him coming out of college. He is doing better than most of his peers from days past. By all appearances he is getting the most out of what talent he has.

Sorry for the typos. I am terrible typist.

Sure, I could be wrong, but I do not think it is a silly question.

I think it is an exaggeration to say that tens of thousands of folks are in that category.

What is so bad about Vail's form?

AndyDufresne wrote:

A guy who runs a huge volume of tempos at 4:56-4:57 and faster should be able to run 5:10 in a pack even with bad conditions.

Actually, he may not be doing enough of his training at or near the projected race pace. He has decent 10k speed, and he is running a lot of mileage. So what is lacking should be either quality of marathon specific training or his ability to peak at the right time. I suspect he needs to to a little more at or near MP, even if that means he cuts back a little bit on his overall mileage.

I also have to wonder if working with your college coach is a good idea. How many top level marathoners has Dave Smith coached? College coaches are used to train people for distances up to 10k, but don't have much experience in coaching marathoners. Yeah, it worked well with Meb, but I think Larsen had far more experience there when he started coaching Meb in his post-collegiate career.

outsiderunner wrote:

Sure, I could be wrong, but I do not think it is a silly question.

I think it is an exaggeration to say that tens of thousands of folks are in that category.

What is so bad about Vail's form?

OK, leaving aside the notion of a question being silly, I just don't see any reason to view Vail as some sort of under-achiever relative to his talent level. If anything I would call him an over-achiever. His is a huge success story relative to the base talent level.

And as far as Vail's form - have you watched him run in person or in up close videos on the track? I really don't mean any offense by this since I have huge respect for Vail, but he looks incredibly uncoordinated. I can't think of very many elite level folks who do not look a LOT smoother and more efficient than Vail. Not to say that I think he should try to change it because that is almost always a bad idea. But to take a random sample of folks who can run 2:10 or better you would be hard pressed to find anyone who looks worse than Vail.

Great post! I should have started this post! Vail is an animal! So great to see his training pay off! Was dying to see him live running New York but of course that was impossible. He looked so good at the finish. Way to fly RYAN!

Yes, it is great to see Vail go top ten in a major, and he did look very good as he crossed the line.

No, I have not seen him run (other than on TV). I will try to observe his form more carefully.

Interesting comments here. Yes, Vail is a fighter, and I think his best marathons still lie ahead of him.

Its only his second marathon. Mebs done more marathons than eaten hot dinners.

My thoughts are that he's very good but his ceiling of potential isn't that high. I wouldn't agree with those calling him super talented. I actually think hes doing really well maximizing his abilities. He ran 2:10:57 at london this spring. That's about as fast as he's going to get which is very solid no doubt. He's on the same level as a Reid Coolseat. High 27 guy, High 2:10. (Actually Coolseat was much faster over 5km.)

Like, to be honest. I don't think he has the talent of a guy like Andrew Carlson....he could have run under 2:10.

But comparing him to Meb isn't fair. Even at age 39. Meb is far more talented. And at Ryan's age had already won a silver medal at the Olympics and 27:13 for 10000m

HOW can you compare the two. Also Meb's PB is 2:08. So Vail at 2:10.....to me that's him maximizing what he has to work with. Granted Meb, had he run a berlin/rotterdam type course very well may have run 2:06 mid. (He could have ran anything hall ran other then that 59:43 half).

Just my thoughts. Not a bad day for him.