Van Cortlandt Park

not really. the course runs very similar.

It's a huge difference. In the past the back loop was sand and rocks. Now it's paved with packed cinders, much like a well-maintained cider track. There is no comparison.

The course is absolutely faster. The back hills have no ruts, holes and the dirt is hard like a road.

In spite of the fact that kids are out of shape our best runners are better than in years past.

and the roots were replaced by well spaced rail road ties.

Kinda figured as much. Hard to picture the likes of Salazar, Gregorek, or Troutman getting dusted by 20 or 30 secs.How much faster do you think it is now?

are you kidding me? wrote:

It's a huge difference. In the past the back loop was sand and rocks. Now it's paved with packed cinders, much like a well-maintained cider track. There is no comparison.

Wealthburg wrote:

Kinda figured as much. Hard to picture the likes of Salazar, Gregorek, or Troutman getting dusted by 20 or 30 secs.

How much faster do you think it is now?

are you kidding me? wrote:

It's a huge difference. In the past the back loop was sand and rocks. Now it's paved with packed cinders, much like a well-maintained cider track. There is no comparison.

It's nothing like a cinder track now. The railroad ties slow runners down and mess up their rhythm just like the roots used to. The course might be a little faster now, but no more than 10 seconds.

it is at least 20 seconds faster

I haven't seen the course recently,but if I can relate a story from the 70's. I ran the VCP college 5 mile course the first race of the season and I and a couple of other team mates had such severe blood blisters on our heels and balls of feet that we were unable to run for a couple of days after having them lanced open. It was just like running on a dry rocky river bed for several areas of the course. The downhills were so rocky that you had to almost zig zag down them to avoid the bigger loose rocks or embedded boulders. I know they "fixed" some of the problems the following weeks, but it was the toughest surface I had ever run on.

They seem to move the start around a lot too - since I've been runnign there, I've seen 3 different starts for the 5k and 2 or 3 for the 2.5 mile course. I have no idea where the races in the 70s started.

The condition of the grass matters too - it used to vary but now it is in great shape. very fast grass.

Believe it wrote:

Wealthburg wrote:

Kinda figured as much. Hard to picture the likes of Salazar, Gregorek, or Troutman getting dusted by 20 or 30 secs.

How much faster do you think it is now?

It's nothing like a cinder track now. The railroad ties slow runners down and mess up their rhythm just like the roots used to. The course might be a little faster now, but no more than 10 seconds.

I think 10 seconds is underestimating the difference - old timers talk about the downhills with fear (and pride) - you couldn't get any momentum up because you were dodging rocks and holes and roots and the ground was very soft - now you can go as fast down the hills as you can bear it - one or two railroad ties are pretty easy to navigate.

I race an xc course most years - it is so messed up that there is no momentum to be had - you have to slow to a job to pick your way through the rocks - it can make a massive difference. 10-15 secs per mile.

The cow path was totally sand. It was like running in the soft sand at Jones Beach.

Gunny wrote:

The cow path was totally sand. It was like running in the soft sand at Jones Beach.

Old Cow Path - Sand

New Cow Path - Packed earth

Parade Grounds (last 3/4 mile) - Soil

Parade Grounds - Asphalt

the parade ground finish straight path is not now asphalt - it is cinder/hard packed dirt.

Riverdale Runner wrote:

[quote]Gunny wrote:

Parade Grounds (last 3/4 mile) - Soil

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-o-haeWFskv4/Uwk_QpE0iCI/AAAAAAAAFdQ/Yfazx-abkgo/s1600/mike+ryan.png

Parade Grounds - Asphalt

http://www.nycgovparks.org/photo_gallery/full_size/3681.jpg

You're right, sorry. It's as smooth as asphalt.

Riverdale Runner wrote:

Old Cow Path - Sand

http://tickets.armorytrack.com/News/Post/Van-Cortlandt-Park-That-Park-Made-Me

Looks to be Centro Sr. of Power on the right.

Runner in the center is Kevin McCarey of Cathedral Prep and the year is 1971. Kevin ran 12:25, the second fastest ever on the course at that time behind only the 12:24 of Marty Liquori.

Riverdale Runner wrote:

Old Cow Path - Sand

http://tickets.armorytrack.com/News/Post/Van-Cortlandt-Park-That-Park-Made-Me

Gunny wrote:

Runner in the center is Kevin McCarey of Cathedral Prep and the year is 1971. Kevin ran 12:25, the second fastest ever on the course at that time behind only the 12:24 of Marty Liquori.

That's not McCarey. There's no one in that photo who even remotely looks like Kinky.

The photo is from the 1972 Easterns, the so-called "Maryland Invasion", when kids from my neighborhood took three out of the top four spots, and Dave Sandridge (left) broke Marty Liquori's course record. I'm running in single file behind Centrowtiz, Gene McCarthy and Irv Fannell.

The runner in the middle is Merril Noden, sometime contributing writer for Sports illustrated and Princeton grad.

I should know, that photo belong's to a friend of mine, and I'm the one who scanned it and put it up on Letsrun.

agip wrote:

They seem to move the start around a lot too - since I've been runnign there, I've seen 3 different starts for the 5k and 2 or 3 for the 2.5 mile course. I have no idea where the races in the 70s started.

They moved the start around because of construction. It's back to the original location now.

If Trautmann, Centrowitz, Liqouri, Webb ran it in it's current state they would be sub 12. Cheserek has the record at 11:55.