You are right. Thought the same.
BUT: I think he meant you cannot go out like minutes behind the lead pack and expect to win.
Even when you want to come from behind you usually have to hit at least 1:03 at halfway to win. That was a world record split a couple years ago (till 2003 or so the record was 2:06). Now it's kind of... a quarter mile back halfway^^ A "lame" split, if you want.
The progression rate in the marathom is crazy.
OP, great post.I like the overall feel of the quote but you are right. If everyone goes out fast and blows up, you can win from behind.The facts are whoever gets to the finish line first wins. It's hard to run by yourself but in reality the competitors could simply time trial the course - that's kind of what the women did in Berlin (obviously easier for them as they have their own rabbits).But his sentiment that people now attack the marathon is correct. What I most disagree with is his referencing Haile G as the transforming force from 2008. Hello? The marathon would have changed anyway but the 2008 race by Wanjiru in Beijing was the day the marathon changed FOREVER. OP, you talk about Wanjiru - Canova does not.I was living with John Kellogg at the time of the 2008 Games. He rarely posts on here anymore. We watched that Beijing race and he was so amazed by it - he personally wrote the LRC race recap:Go back and re-read it:http://www.letsrun.com/2008/marathon0824.phpHere is how he started it:
John Kellogg wrote:
With a starting temperature of 74 degrees in the shade and 84 degrees on the course, conditions were not as difficult as they could have been in Beijing, but the weather was typical for the Olympics - warm and muggy and liable to get warmer.Anyone who assumed the race would begin cautiously in the manner of a normal summer Olympic marathon, however, was about to be shocked.
From the first steps, Sammy Wanjiru of Kenya got in front and started rolling - really rolling - not unlike a man who merely wanted some face time on the television. Fans are aware of Wanjiru's credentials; the prodigy has the world junior record at 10,000 meters on the track, the world bests for 20k and half marathon on the road and a 2:05:24 marathon best. Yet when the first mile was reached in 4:41 with a pack of at least 20 of the best runners in the world tagging along, the consensus might have been that it was suicidal for anyone to take the pace out hard from the start in a warm-weather championship marathon.
-Rojo
PS. I changed the title of the thread and added the - "- He's right but wrong (Kebede and Korir came from behind, Wanjiru, not Geb attacked in '08)" as descriptive thread titles help threads get noticed.
PPS. Some of the attacking of the marathon is because we have rabbits for all of the races.
I really think the majors should go rabbits one year, no rabbits the next. Hell, let the defending champ decide. Hell draw out of a hat at the start line. Something to spice it up.
(Editor's note: This thread referenes the quote of the day on the front page here: http://www.letsrun.com/archive/2014/09/30/ ) I guess it's a good thing Wesley Korir (Boston 2012) and Tsegaye Kebede (London 2012) weren't aware that nobody comes from behind to finish in the top five of a major marathon. These are just two recent major marathon CHAMPIONS who came from behind to win. Of course things have changed since Wanjiru, but let's not go overboard.
I just thought of another example of how in a weird way Canova is wrong in some ways.
Anyone remember Boston 2014? The Africans gift-wrapped the victory for Meb. I guess one can say the person who was aggressive won the race so in that sense Canova is right but Dennis Kimetto was in that race and didn't attack. None of the Kenyan/Ethiopian runners attacked.
Again, don't get me wrong. I love the sentiment of the article as I feel it's true to a large extent.
But not totally. Not everyone is attacking the marathon 100% of the time.
I think a big part of what Canova means is that you have to be aggressive in order to get to the absolute top -- that is, not just winning a race, but proving you're better than everyone else, be it WR, WMM winner, or whatever.
Sure, Meb has several really huge performances, and I think his win in Boston is enough to say he's the greatest American marathoner in the past 20-25 years. But even though he's won NY and Boston, nobody is talking about him as one of the top in the world, because he doesn't run the fast times. Likewise, Korir came from behind, but he did so because everyone else was overly aggressive and blew up (as Canova says in the QOD they expect to do sometimes). Nobody thinks of Korir as one of the top guys either.
In order to be the best - to reach the top, as Canova put it - you have to be willing to accept that you might blow up. Meb doesn't blow up, he stays strong and hopes others fade. Kimetto went for it and didn't blow up. Wanjiru went for it and didn't blow up. So have many other top guys from the past 6 years, and that's how they win. Many of those guys have had other races where they went for it and did blow up - falling way back or dropping out, even before 30km. Canova's point is that that's how you have to do it to be one of the best in the world - you'll never be setting WRs if you don't have the stones to push the pace.
zgersh wrote:
I think a big part of what Canova means is that you have to be aggressive in order to get to the absolute top -- that is, not just winning a race, but proving you're better than everyone else, be it WR, WMM winner, or whatever.
Sure, Meb has several really huge performances, and I think his win in Boston is enough to say he's the greatest American marathoner in the past 20-25 years. But even though he's won NY and Boston, nobody is talking about him as one of the top in the world, because he doesn't run the fast times. Likewise, Korir came from behind, but he did so because everyone else was overly aggressive and blew up (as Canova says in the QOD they expect to do sometimes). Nobody thinks of Korir as one of the top guys either.
In order to be the best - to reach the top, as Canova put it - you have to be willing to accept that you might blow up. Meb doesn't blow up, he stays strong and hopes others fade. Kimetto went for it and didn't blow up. Wanjiru went for it and didn't blow up. So have many other top guys from the past 6 years, and that's how they win. Many of those guys have had other races where they went for it and did blow up - falling way back or dropping out, even before 30km. Canova's point is that that's how you have to do it to be one of the best in the world - you'll never be setting WRs if you don't have the stones to push the pace.
Exactly why Farah will never be an all-time great
Everyone remembers Wanjiru because he won, but Deriba Merga was right up there with him pushing the pace until 5km to go when he totally cratered (lost 4 minutes to Wanjiru!). He is was another one of the pioneers of the "no fear of the pace" mentality. He once set the 8km world best en route to a half marathon!. Too bad he usually cratered and never set a truly fast marathon time.
There is a major point about Canova's comment, which isn't receiving much attention. First, he is stating the obvious: "to get a WR, you got to train hard, and race hard"; and then the underlying kicker... "and not using some old-school methods like Lydiard, but using the new evolved Canovian methods".
Think further about the WHY of his message. It is the message he is preaching to his Kenyan athletes, pushing them harder. But he has the luxury of doing that, because there is another economically-poor Kenyan athlete out of that large stable over there to step up and replace the current top-dog that gets injured and/or burned out from the intensity. Coaches in the west don't have that luxury of a boundless stable of athletes to cherry-pick from.
Canova is right. People are just taking him a bit too far. The marathon has become more of a flat out fast race. Course records in NY and Boston have been slashed by the elite field going out hard from the gun. No more chess games where everyone waits for someone to be the sacrificial lamb and try to break away, only to get swallowed up and left for dead on the next surge. Everyone is willing to take it to the pace early in the race and see who can survive. It is no longer a safe bet to let a breakaway do the work and then reel them in. The breakaway is just going too damn fast now.
Fred Savage wrote:
Everyone remembers Wanjiru because he won, but Deriba Merga was right up there with him pushing the pace until 5km to go when he totally cratered (lost 4 minutes to Wanjiru!). He is was another one of the pioneers of the "no fear of the pace" mentality. He once set the 8km world best en route to a half marathon!. Too bad he usually cratered and never set a truly fast marathon time.
+1
rojo wrote:
But his sentiment that people now attack the marathon is correct.
I like most of your posts and this thread, but this sentiment is totally, totally wrong. In fact it's just the opposite. Two things have happened in recent years that have transformed the marathon.
1. The runners have gotten a lot faster.
2. The top runners have started really dialing it in AT EVEN PACE (or sometimes even negative splitting). What this means is they usually DO NOT BLOW UP. Therefore, the more conservative (read: slower) runners rarely win from behind.
The first point obscures the second point, since it looks like everybody is going out like Steve Jones. But no, they're much faster. They would have to go out in 59 to do that. But the World Record is now 2:02-high and no one has ever even gone out under 1:01.
The reason for this is pretty apparent. A lot of the gains in the marathon have come from proper pacing and athletes capable of running well at even splits. (We can thank the Canova school for some of that).
But while it is true that sometimes athletes will blow up, what we have is a combination of faster athletes and proper, often more CONSERVATIVE pacing that means an athlete who falls behind at any point is probably not strong enough to win the race.
rojo wrote:
But his sentiment that people now attack the marathon is correct.
What I most disagree with is his referencing Haile G as the transforming force from 2008.
Hello? The marathon would have changed anyway but the 2008 race by Wanjiru in Beijing was the day the marathon changed FOREVER. OP, you talk about Wanjiru - Canova does not.
Rojo the following spring in Rotterdam and Paris were the change Canova was looking at. The date was 4/5/2009
Rotterdam:
Two guys nobody had heard of, Kibet and Kwambai, both finished 28 seconds under Tergats old record and 28 seconds behind Gebs amazing sub 2:04 in Berlin. 3rd place in that race, Abel Kirui was 9 seconds back of the old Tergat mark. 2:04.27, 2:04.27, 2:05.04
Paris - 1st thru 10
2:05.47,
2:06.15
2:06.26
2:06.30
2:06.48
2:06.53
2:07.31
2:08.11
2:08.12
2:08.38
But the 30km mark in both races were ridiculous. Rotterdam where 6 guys jumped into the all time top 20 in the 30km road mark en route. This has been broken obviously. 4th in that race was Makau who ran 2:06.04.
Paris had 14 guys together at 30km in 1:29.20s
Gebs race in Berlin the previous fall had 5 or 6 guys drop ridiculous 30km marks but only 1 guy managed to hang on. Kwambai finished at 2:05.36, 3rd was 2:07.48 4th 2:09.48.
Berlin was an appetizer for the following spring when the flood gates really opened and guys went hard, dropped sick 30km marks and hung on.
Pretty amazing.
10/10
[quote]rojo wrote:
He rarely posts on here anymore. We watched that Beijing race and he was so amazed by it - he personally wrote the LRC race recap:
[quote]
Did this race break his spirit as a coach?
just the opposite wrote:
rojo wrote:But his sentiment that people now attack the marathon is correct.
I like most of your posts and this thread, but this sentiment is totally, totally wrong. In fact it's just the opposite. Two things have happened in recent years that have transformed the marathon.
1. The runners have gotten a lot faster.
2. The top runners have started really dialing it in AT EVEN PACE (or sometimes even negative splitting). What this means is they usually DO NOT BLOW UP. Therefore, the more conservative (read: slower) runners rarely win from behind.
The first point obscures the second point, since it looks like everybody is going out like Steve Jones. But no, they're much faster. They would have to go out in 59 to do that. But the World Record is now 2:02-high and no one has ever even gone out under 1:01.
The reason for this is pretty apparent. A lot of the gains in the marathon have come from proper pacing and athletes capable of running well at even splits. (We can thank the Canova school for some of that).
But while it is true that sometimes athletes will blow up, what we have is a combination of faster athletes and proper, often more CONSERVATIVE pacing that means an athlete who falls behind at any point is probably not strong enough to win the race.
I totally agree, people are going All Prefontaine already with the going out crazy and just have balls to dig deep.
Excellent preparation and excellent pacing is the real story here. And there is nothing wrong with that. It isn't less gutsy it's just smart.
I believe negative splits are major parts of most WR in running.
rojo wrote:
I just thought of another example of how in a weird way Canova is wrong in some ways.
Anyone remember Boston 2014? The Africans gift-wrapped the victory for Meb. I guess one can say the person who was aggressive won the race so in that sense Canova is right but Dennis Kimetto was in that race and didn't attack. None of the Kenyan/Ethiopian runners attacked.
Again, don't get me wrong. I love the sentiment of the article as I feel it's true to a large extent.
But not totally. Not everyone is attacking the marathon 100% of the time.
How about giving Med some credit for running a race suited to the course? He certainly attacked, at the right time. The now-standard roll along in a fast pack until 30km then drop the hammer is not the way to run Boston.
The only top Marathon without pacers is Boston, and are the athletes themselves deciding the speed of the race.
Without going again to speak about wind yes / wind not (I continue to think that in 2011 the wind was not continue, not directional and not so strong as many think, for justifying the, at that time, unbleiavable performances), the Boston times are mainly influenced by the action of some runner IN THE RACE (because, as I said, no official pacers).
So, in 2011 the race came from Ryan Hall (not from wind !) such as in 2014 for women came from Shalane Flanagan (and, in any case, the winner was with the leading Group from the beginning of the race).
When you speak about somebody winning coming from behind (Meb in Boston, and Wesley Korir), you speak about a race WITHOUT pacers, that is not built for fast times.
Another thing is to lose 20-40 meters for some attack of another runner after 32-34 km (for example, the even pace is 2'56" per km and a crazy Kenyan goes for 1 km in 2'45", you prefer to increase your speed from 2'56" till 2'50" but not to close the gap immediately, and after 3 km you, with your even fast pace, are able to overtake the leader, slowing down at 3' - 3'05" (and probably dropping out) because HE DID SOMETHING WRONG). In this case, the winner is not some athlete coming from behind, but some athlete Always in the leading Group, using his brain while somebody else uses his belly.
The fact that all the last WR were bettered with negative split, clearly explain why is not possible to win these type of marathons without staying in the leading Group from the beginning.
A little difference the situation in the marathons for women, with common start. In this case, we can see athletes running very fast from the start not winning the race, if some other can follow at her planned pace together with some male rabbit. This is what happened in Berlin : Shalane was Always in front WITH HER PACEMAKER, Tirfi and Feyse Boru followed some second behind WITH THEIR PACEMAKER, and at the end they overtook Shalane after 30 kms without staying together from the start, but in this case we can speak about athletes running AGAINST TIME only, following a precise speed, and the real race starts after 35 km only.