Pace Runs

Durden's program in 84 weeks long, right?

Actually, someone in one of Hal Higdon's books does have an 84 week program for two marathons or something like that, and it might be Durden. His "regular" deal is 15 or 16 weeks.

To complete a marathon, not super important. To run your best marathon, they are extremely important. There are different ways to incorporate them, but I would replace 3 of your long runs with:

6 easy to moderate + 10 @ MRP

6 easy to moderate + 12 @ MRP

6 easy to moderate + 14 @ MRP

There are many variations of the principle. But these really prepare you for the stress. Easy to moderate paced long runs alone do not accomplish this.

Thank you. That is very useful.

I’ve done Pfitz’s program (with a few modifications) for three marathons and have had good success with it....three marathons, three pr’s...2:30, 2:28, 2:26.

That being said, I think the MP runs have been the most important workouts I’ve done during training. I took his 12 week more than 70 mpw and added roughly 20% on the MP days, and 10% on the threshold days. I don’t think you can beat replicating the exact pace of your goal. I would also add a mile at the start and a mile at the end of MP on medium-long days and would also throw in a couple of miles of it on the sunday long run.... all to reinforce on what it feel like on race day. I was hitting MP during runs three days a week consistently for probably 7-8 weeks of the entire plan.

Thinking about what I did in my training in previous marathons, I'd always be worried about pace, constantly checking splits, or going with a faster group just because "it felt right."

I attribute a large part of hitting close to my goal in these last three races to “feeling pace” right away as a result of the MP workouts....they helped me lock in for 22 miles (the wheels did fall off a bit after that)....................as a side not doing a 16 ml MP run 5-weeks out was a tremendous confidence builder going into my last race. More than you wanted to know, and absolutely no science to back it up, but I believe MP is the key workout.

No, that's not more than I wanted to know. That's exactly what I wanted to know. I just wondered why, if I wanted to run a marathon at - oh, 7:10s - , I would have lots of miles at 7:45-8:00, a decent amount at 6:30-6:45, and none at 7:10s. Thanks so much. I have Advanced Marathoning, and I think I'll try to follow those guidelines for my next sorry attempt. Thanks again.

Has anyone has success racing a handful of half marathons rather than doing somewhat longer runs at MP?

I could see where that could work if you didn't cheat on reducing the length of your long runs. I've often thought, it would be nice to get three-four quality halfs in on an 18 week schedule before a marathon, but one problem is that most races are Sundays. All the sudden you're doing your long run on Monday, or if the race beats your legs up you do it Tuesday...then you screw up your medium-long run....and the domino effect continues the rest of the week. I think this is ok to do maybe once or twice, but more than that I think the long runs and medium long runs suffer---you might get in the volume, but for me the quality suffers.

I feel more at ease knowing that I've done all my long runs rather than getting a half pr that is four or five minutes faster than what my planned half split would be for the goal marathon. Though both are good confidence builders, getting that feeling of being out there for + two hours is more beneficial if you're looking for marathon specific benefits.

Frank Horwill has an excellent article on his website that addresses this point - here's the link. Good luck!

http://www.serpentine.org.uk/advice/coach/fh70.php

I think there is a danger in over-racing. Pick a half 5 or 6 weeks before your goal marathon to go and get a pr and a big confidence booster.

millstreet,

just curious, but following pfitz's plan with the modifications you mentioned, how much improvement did you experience from you prior thon attempts?

thanks.

a 2:34, 2:36 and 2:31, 2:33 in that order....I did not add in the modifications of +20% and +10% until going from 2:28 to 2:26. This is not earth shaking improvements as there are probably better marathon plans out there. My prior plan I used before Pfitz was no plan...in other words it was just workouts I did in college track and xc..no periodization or anything...

I love the Pfitz plans because I have a job/kids and end up doing most of my mileage on the treadmill. I can't really dedicate much more time to it than maxing out at 85-95 mpw, and Pfitz's stuff works out well for these limits. It hardly requires any use of the track except for strides and a few 5K pace workouts that can be done on the treadmill if you crank up the incline.

thanks for the info...very helpful!