Keino vs. Ryun, 1500 Meters, 1968 Olympics

"everybody knows that"

geico wrote:

"everybody knows that"

Whom are you quoting?

Watch the video again. Maybe you'll get it the second time around. Pay attention to both the narrator and Jipcho, who planned the tactics with Keino and carried them out. Or should we ignore a guy who actually ran the race and knows, and instead listen to you? None too bright, are you?

Ok, since you obviously don't get it, nor do you believe Jipcho, a guy who actually ran the race, now you're embarassing yourself. Quit while you're behind and let someone else move ahead while you move out to the second or third lane and get lapped.

Totally unfair to accuse Skah of winning due to team tactics in the Barcelona 10,000. Briefly with 2 laps to go Boutayeb was lapped and tried to block Chelimo to keep the pace slow for Skah.

If you watch the race footage you can even see Skah telling Boutayeb to get out of the way.

It was not planned like Jipcho and Keino in Mexico City.

Skah should never initially been dq'd due to another runner trying to help him. He had nothing to do with that.

George Atlas wrote:

Totally unfair to accuse Skah of winning due to team tactics in the Barcelona 10,000. Briefly with 2 laps to go Boutayeb was lapped and tried to block Chelimo to keep the pace slow for Skah.

If you watch the race footage you can even see Skah telling Boutayeb to get out of the way.

It was not planned like Jipcho and Keino in Mexico City.

Skah should never initially been dq'd due to another runner trying to help him. He had nothing to do with that.

I agree with you, George. I think he was unfairly disqualified and justifiably reinstated. AND he was obviously the stronger runner anyhow. Khalid Skah--one of the best ever, both on the track and in cross country. He also ran one helluva half-marathon against German Silva. Look that one up on YouTube if you're interested.

Several things:

1) This has been posted here MANY times. Your statement of "something that a lot of people don't know" doesn't apply to this board.

2) Runners themselves really aren't all that reliable in predicting exactly who will win the race under given circumstances. Jipcho's words likely carry more weight than random posters on Letsrun, but it's more likely that he would be wrong than right.

3) You should actually take the hint that Ventolin is strongly arguing AGAINST Jim Ryun in this case.

If you scroll through the boards, you'll probably see HUNDREDS of posts from Ventolin arguing that Ryun is basically the greatest miler ever to be born, that he had the ability to run 3'24", that he had the most potential, etc.

There have also been dozens of instances in which people have started threads about prominent milers/1500m runners, Kiprop, El Guerrouj, Morceli, Coe, etc. and 5-6 posts in, Ventolin completely derails it into an argument about why Ryun was better than all of them.

The point is, Ventolin is irrationally overzealous in asserting Ryun's status as the GOAT in his event to the point that it's irritating. If something has managed to convince Ventolin that Ryun didn't have a prayer in the race, it's akin to a miracle.

Team tactics nothing. Just accept the fact that Keino outsmarted Ryun.

As for altitude, Ryun knew fully well that the games were going to be held at altitude. He had 2 years to train at altitude. If he chose not to then its his fault. But I assume he did but was still soundly beaten

No need to defend him unless you are him. You sure take a lot of time defending the guy, AND you are as verbose as he. The point of the post was simply to interest SOME people who might now know as much as you and I because no, NOT EVERYBODY knows these things. Ryun and Keino were both great. I happen to believe Ryun was a bit greater, but one thing you'll often find ME arguing on this forum is that there are no runners in the world to match the Africans as a whole.

Seyta wrote:

The point is, Ventolin is irrationally overzealous in asserting Ryun's status as the GOAT in his event to the point that it's irritating. If something has managed to convince Ventolin that Ryun didn't have a prayer in the race, it's akin to a miracle.

Ventolin forms his opinions based on analysis. It is people like you who are dumb and simply state he has some fanboy obsession with Ryun.

It is this very reason why he has stated Ryun would not have won at sea level. He formed that conclusion based on analysis.

Having recently read "In Quest Of Gold" there are several comments that are relevant to Mexico in 1968.

1) Ryun was let down by the American experts who told him that 3:38/39 was the fastest anyone could run at altitude. His whole race strategy was based on this false belief.

2) Ryun's preparations were disrupted by illness/injury which may have been brought about by the intense training he went through the previous 3-4 years.

3) Ryun was not helped by the demands of the collegiate season or having to run the US Trials when he was not quite ready due to aforementioned illness/injury.

4) Like many sea level athletes Ryun was freaked by his first experiences of trying to run at altitude and possibly never quite recovered his self confidence?

5) Ryun was clearly suffered from the pressure the American media heaped upon him. He was expected to win gold and this weight of expectation combined with the knowledge that he was not in peak form made the whole Olympic experience very stressful and unpleasant for him.

6) Oh yes, Keino ran an incredible race - tactics based on several defeats by Ryun in the previous couple of years.

7) GOAT? only one contender - Elliott!

No different to the help El G had in countless championship races, yet we don't complain that those guys who got the silver should have won! Just saying.

Also, all this about the effects of altitude is very misleading. It appears to have a partial benefit over 800 for sea level born athletes, and I'm sure a bigger benefit to altitude born athletes. Clearly over 5 and 10k altitude has a negative effect, but I can't imagine it is that much of a disadvantage over 3.75 laps. Ryun was clearly not at his best, but Keino was born and bred at altitude and the air in Mexico probably had no effect on him at all. All this rubbish about it being worth 3:27 at sea level is absolute rubbish, and I don't care what certain tables say. Everyone will react different to altitude, look at the 3k SC guy who always runs poorly in Kenyan trials but runs brilliant times days later at sea level. He is an anomaly amongst Kenyans.

Ryun wasn't beaten by Jipcho's tactics, he was beaten by a better runner on the day who was less affected by the altitude.

Coe's comment is being taken out of context. He was talking specifically about Bannister's run on a cold windy day in 1954 and (purposely flattering Baanister on the 60 th anniversay of his 3:59) comparing it to modern (I.e. 2014) tracks. That does not mean he believes all dirt track performances would be 1.5 per lap faster.

When asked in 1984 what the difference was between a cinder and dirt track over a mile, he said that "0.5 sec was a conservative effort for a well kept cinder track". He regularly ran on both and on a cold day in 1980 ran 1:44.98 and 46.4 relay on dirt the same afternoon. Based on 1.5 secs per lap, do you really think he ran the equivalent of a 1:41.9 and 44.9?

But a 1:43.9 and 45.8 relay leg look much more reasonable and are supported by other performances from him around this time in a season.

+1.

Good analysis and facts, mark b. Thanks to you and others for some really good comments on my thread. Anyone can disagree, but doing so respectfully makes a person much more credible. By the way, I AGREE with you about Herb Elliott. He was an awesome runner WAY ahead of his time. If he were running today with all the advances in training, shoes, track surfaces, supplements, etc., he could definitely run with anyone.

reader of the forums wrote:

Seyta wrote:

The point is, Ventolin is irrationally overzealous in asserting Ryun's status as the GOAT in his event to the point that it's irritating. If something has managed to convince Ventolin that Ryun didn't have a prayer in the race, it's akin to a miracle.

Ventolin forms his opinions based on analysis. It is people like you who are dumb and simply state he has some fanboy obsession with Ryun.

It is this very reason why he has stated Ryun would not have won at sea level. He formed that conclusion based on analysis.

And you and he are one and the same person. A quick trawl through recent posts can see this from a mile off. Ventolin, I.e. You, bases his outlandish claims on skewed analysis and bias. He is inconsistent with his so called analysis, backed up by his calculator he is always trying to flog, and doesn't apply the same 'analysis' to others.

This is an interesting thread. I was at that 1968 race and enjoyed it very much but partly for another reason than the fact that Jim Ryun ran such a fine time at that altitude. Let's look at the accomplishments of Kip Keino that week.

First of all I believe Keino had a bladder infection shortly before the games.

Then on October 13 he started the 10,000 meter final and, I think, he ran with the leaders for a while. He suddenly staggered off the track and lay down on the grass for a while. As the stretcher bearers approached him he got up and finished the race.

On October 15, he ran a heat of the 5,000. On October 17 He raced the final and came second behind Gammoudi and ahead of Temu, Martinez and Clarke. Gammoudi's last lap was 54.8

Finally, came the 1,500 with the heats being on October 18, the semis on October 19 and the final being on October 20.

Kip Keino ran a thrilling and fantastic race in that final.

Peer Mediator wrote:

reader of the forums wrote:

Ventolin forms his opinions based on analysis. It is people like you who are dumb and simply state he has some fanboy obsession with Ryun.

It is this very reason why he has stated Ryun would not have won at sea level. He formed that conclusion based on analysis.

And you and he are one and the same person. A quick trawl through recent posts can see this from a mile off. Ventolin, I.e. You, bases his outlandish claims on skewed analysis and bias. He is inconsistent with his so called analysis, backed up by his calculator he is always trying to flog, and doesn't apply the same 'analysis' to others.

1) No, I am not Ventolin

2) Ventolin bases his opinions on analysis, not on fanboyism

3) The point of my last post was 2), which apparently went over your head