Actual length of Paul Short Course...

Accurate, but a good downhill section on the back part before the rolling hills.

Columbia's Steve Sundell ran 24:07 or something last year and he was XC All-America. It was just nice day

rumour is that it used to be called the paul invitational until they measured the course.

ha ha good one

Last year te conditions sucked...it was pouring rain and very windy. I don't think it was so bad today.

The course is certified 8k. It's legit length. There's just a lack of big or extended uphills and the surface today was particularly nice. No muddy portions or anything and the grass was not ankle high. Who are these guys who unexpectedly ran a minute faster than earlier? I know I ran a lot faster than my first race but my first race was on a harder course and I trained through it, as most people do for early season races. To put things in perspective, last year I ran a time only about 10 seconds slower at VCP while peaking than I ran at Paul Short earlier on.

i would like to learn to certify a XC race/course

how does one do this?

word on the street is that it is certified, but that they didn't measure along the tangents which makes what you actually run at least 100m shorter than what they measured. Just look at the results... 50 guys at or under 25 on september 25th? That's a little quick.

I ran the course last year when it was muddy, wet, and cold and it was blazing fast. I'm not terribly suprised by the fast times today on a much nicer day with better conditions. I could call it legit.

Lehigh is an absolutely legit course that has been used for years. They had both D1 and D3 regional races there in 2001 (10k and 8k). Lot of history there. It's accurate.

It's hosted nationals also. I agree that the perfect weather and the fact that it's the first invite for most teams has more to do with the fast times. Everyone wants to prove to their coach that they belong on the team and prove to themselves that they're in shape.

If a course is certified as a "championship" course or certified for a championship then it's my understanding that the course is measured in the middle of the path, which obviously doesn't follow tangents and takes corners wide. As far as I know this is how all NCAA championship courses are certified. So depending on the number of turns and width of course (I think 10' is the minimum for an NCAA champs course) the course can be run more or less to your advantage (*read "short") depending on how smart you run it.

its legit, it was used for a championships course... while there are rolling hills, it is well groomed and the hills arent too steep which allows people to fly over them. some people say it is a quick course, ran my pr there.

Go look at Stanford Invite. You could say the same thing.And I do not think that field was as strong top to bottom.

With so many people running lifetime PRs on the course ... it is obviously legit ... otherwise, they're just a crummy mid 25:00 8K runner. ;-)

I ran what was at the time a pr there. I think the fast times are a combination of

1. Typically good weather

2. A course much less hilly and much better groomed than most collegiate xc courses and

3. Outstanding competition.

1. Valid

2. Debatable, but valid

3. Bull Shit

Sorry, you can speak about the top guys as such, but when the typical 29-minute guys (who always have people around them in any race), run 27's, there's something else at work. Those guys weren't listening to Survivor beforehand, thinking about how they're finally going to step up to the challenge. The course is the reason.

NCAA D3 Nats were at LeHigh in 1994. Was that the same course? Don't know about the weather that day but the winning time was 24:41 that day, with NCC's John Weigel second in 24:55. I included his time as evidence it was not a weak field that year.

At the same time, I ran at Hanover last year, and Moen's performance then was more impressive than Yuot's at Paul Short this year.

True that good comp doesn't affect mid packers as much. I do, however, think there is something to be said for running in a competitive meet and knowing that (even though they may be way ahead of you) there are a slew of guys running sub-5:00 pace. Not a major factor though. I still vote legit.