I'm going to a meet next week where my coach wants to see if I can handle the workload of an open 4 and an open 8 and then giving me a speed workout after that.
My current times for the open 4 are around 0:54.0-0:54.6
and my current 800 times in the 4x8 (I've never run the open 8) around between 2:06 and 2:08
Hmm, well your 4X8 split should really be closer to 2:02 if you have run 54 for 400.
mid-d runner65 wrote:
I'm going to a meet next week where my coach wants to see if I can handle the workload of an open 4 and an open 8 and then giving me a speed workout after that.
My current times for the open 4 are around 0:54.0-0:54.6
and my current 800 times in the 4x8 (I've never run the open 8) around between 2:06 and 2:08
Run 2 miles at about 7:30 pace right after the open 4, it'll help clear the lactate and let you "bounce back" the best you can for the 4x8. Best to just run another 2-3 miles at 7:30 pace after the 4x8, whether you do additional speedwork or not.
Why would you want to clear the lactate? It's energy your muscles use.
dingle wrote:
Why would you want to clear the lactate? It's energy your muscles use.
Try running an all-out 400m just before your next race then, you know, to build up some energy for your muscles to use. Let us know how that works out.
MIC ITW wrote:
dingle wrote:Why would you want to clear the lactate? It's energy your muscles use.
Try running an all-out 400m just before your next race then, you know, to build up some energy for your muscles to use. Let us know how that works out.
No offense, but that replay was pretty damn stupid unless you are trying to troll.
Lactate IS consumed as fuel, via the lactate shuttle. The reason why some easy running between races can make you feel better and race better is not because you are "getting rid of lactate".
Hingle McCringleberry wrote:
Hmm, well your 4X8 split should really be closer to 2:02 if you have run 54 for 400.
How would you know?
LM wrote:
MIC ITW wrote:Try running an all-out 400m just before your next race then, you know, to build up some energy for your muscles to use. Let us know how that works out.
No offense, but that replay was pretty damn stupid unless you are trying to troll.
Lactate IS consumed as fuel, via the lactate shuttle. The reason why some easy running between races can make you feel better and race better is not because you are "getting rid of lactate".
Aware of that, and yet you don't want to start a race with more than 1-2 mmol/l of lactate if possible. It can take well over an hour to get levels back into the 1 mmol/l range after a 400m race if a moderate cooldown isn't done afterwards.
Do you have some other sort of scientific evidence as to why running 20 minutes or so at a moderate pace will help between races where the first race generated peak lactate levels (if measured about 5 minutes or so after the race is completed, of course.)
I was just messing with you about the lactate, but I'm genuinely curious about research that demonstrates the effectiveness of moderate/easy running between long sprints/mid-d races.
Do you have any good citations?
dingle wrote:
I was just messing with you about the lactate, but I'm genuinely curious about research that demonstrates the effectiveness of moderate/easy running between long sprints/mid-d races.
Do you have any good citations?
Further, it's not really "easy" running that clears the lactate fastest, it's more like moderately-hard running. For most it would be roughly 10K pace + 1:00, done for about 20-25:00. This may sound shockingly hard to most, but the muscles will use the excess circulating lactate faster at this pace.
MIC ITW wrote:
dingle wrote:I was just messing with you about the lactate, but I'm genuinely curious about research that demonstrates the effectiveness of moderate/easy running between long sprints/mid-d races.
Do you have any good citations?
Further, it's not really "easy" running that clears the lactate fastest, it's more like moderately-hard running. For most it would be roughly 10K pace + 1:00, done for about 20-25:00. This may sound shockingly hard to most, but the muscles will use the excess circulating lactate faster at this pace.
Maybe you should try reading the article you just linked to before you say they should be running 10k + 1:00.
From the article: "The highest removal rate was 8 mg lactate/100 ml x min at 63% of Vo2 max (average values)."
63% of VO2max is DEFINITELY not 10k pace + 1:00. For comparison, Marathon pace is ~82% of VO2max. For a 2:07 guy, 63% of VO2max is probably somewhere in the vicinity of 8:05-9:10 pace.
But, hey, maybe you are just a troll after all.
Just run it man, grit your teeth and run. Light jog after the 400m, get some sugar into your system and romp the 800m
MIC ITW wrote:
LM wrote:No offense, but that replay was pretty damn stupid unless you are trying to troll.
Lactate IS consumed as fuel, via the lactate shuttle. The reason why some easy running between races can make you feel better and race better is not because you are "getting rid of lactate".
Aware of that, and yet you don't want to start a race with more than 1-2 mmol/l of lactate if possible. It can take well over an hour to get levels back into the 1 mmol/l range after a 400m race if a moderate cooldown isn't done afterwards.
Do you have some other sort of scientific evidence as to why running 20 minutes or so at a moderate pace will help between races where the first race generated peak lactate levels (if measured about 5 minutes or so after the race is completed, of course.)
I find it curious how most HS kids can run all out in an open 400 then come back 30 minutes later and run another all out 400 in the 4x400, and do little inbetween.
watchout wrote:
MIC ITW wrote:Further, it's not really "easy" running that clears the lactate fastest, it's more like moderately-hard running. For most it would be roughly 10K pace + 1:00, done for about 20-25:00. This may sound shockingly hard to most, but the muscles will use the excess circulating lactate faster at this pace.
Maybe you should try reading the article you just linked to before you say they should be running 10k + 1:00.
From the article: "The highest removal rate was 8 mg lactate/100 ml x min at 63% of Vo2 max (average values)."
63% of VO2max is DEFINITELY not 10k pace + 1:00. For comparison, Marathon pace is ~82% of VO2max. For a 2:07 guy, 63% of VO2max is probably somewhere in the vicinity of 8:05-9:10 pace.
But, hey, maybe you are just a troll after all.
Rob, I respect your work, but maybe we'll just have to disagree here. No big deal.
Here's my case, in case you are able to consider it with an open mind.
MP is typically quite a bit lower than 82% of VO2max. That would represent someone who is exceptionally well trained AND exceptionally suited to the marathon genetically. Most athletes hold closer to 75-80% of VO2max for 60:00.
If you define VO2max as the pace someone can hold for about 6 to 8 minutes, then 63% of VO2max will correlate with about that pace multiplied by 1.25. For the sake of keeping this easy, let's say VO2max is 3K race pace. Take 3K race pace and multiply by 1.25. If you want to look at the very extreme example of a 2:07 marathoner, they can probably click off a 3K around 7:45-8:00 if they are CURRENTLY IN 2:07 marathon shape.
On the low side, 3K in 8:00 is about 4:18/mi pace. 4:18/mi * 1.25 = 5:22/mi. This same subject is probably in shape for a 28:00 10K at the very slowest. That is about 4:30/mi pace. So we see for this person, 63% of VO2max is 10K pace plus about 52 seconds.
Other studies indicate maximal lactate clearance occurs at outputs corresponding to 80% of the lactate threshold. For most people, the maximal lactate threshold is the pace they can hold for 30:00 to 60:00. If we again use the 2:07 marathoner and say he is in 60:30 shape for the half, that indicates a pace of about 4:36/mi. 80% of that output equates to roughly that pace multiplied by a range of 1.13-1.20 (the study doesn't explicitly state if it was 80% of the lactate threshold pace, or 80% of the lactate threshold power), or 5:12-5:30/mi.
So we have one study that indicates for this subject maximal lactate clearance happens at 10K pace + :52, and the other study says it clears fastest at either 10K pace + :42 or 10K pace + 1:00 depending on the aforementioned variable of whether they were talking about 80% of LT pace or LT power.
Either way, 8:05-9:10/mi for a 2:07 marathoner is nowhere near what the studies indicate as ideal for rapid lactate clearance via active recovery.
Running on Empathy wrote:
I find it curious how most HS kids can run all out in an open 400 then come back 30 minutes later and run another all out 400 in the 4x400, and do little inbetween.
Most HS kids are not physically mature yet and as such their anaerobic capacity has not fully developed. This means they can not generate peak blood lactate levels quite as high as they'll be able to as adults, assuming they continue training at a high level.
Further, the 4x4 will almost never be run within 30 minutes of the open 400. You have multiple heats of the following in between: 100M, 800M, 300M IH, 200M, and the 3200M.
That is enough time that even without any sort of active recovery the lactate will likely be very close to normal resting levels. The 400 and 800, however, are run close enough to one another that knowing how to clear lactate rapidly becomes very important.
2:07 for 800m (the poster said his relay splits tended to be 2:06-2:08), not a 2:07 marathon.
I certainly agree that MP isn't always = ~82% VO2max, but for some it is and that was a handy example to show the vast difference between 63% and 10k + 1:00.
Yes, let's consider for a second that VO2max is near 3k pace.
2:07 for 800m ~ 4:43.8 for 1600m ~ 10:07 for 3200m ~ 9:25.5 for 3k. That's about 75.4/lap, or about 5:03 per full mile. 63% of that (303/0.63) is about 8:01.5 (481.47 if you take out all the rounding used above).
Meanwhile, 10k pace should be about 5:30 pace (if he's well trained aerobically - ~96% from 3200m -> 5k [so ~16:35 on the track], ~96.5% from 5k -> 10k [so ~34:10 on the track]).
8:00ish - 5:30 = 2:30, not near 1:00.
All are rough estimates and for someone well trained, of course. The poster's 10k pace might well be closer to 6:00 pace, but that's still +2:00.
63% VO2max is still very near what is generally considered "Recovery Pace" or "Regeneration Pace" (and that's probably why it's called "Recovery Pace" or "Regeneration Pace"). After all, isn't that EXACTLY the reason for those very slow runs (to help recover from hard workouts)? By the way, I've seen it listed plenty of times where prescribed "Recovery Pace" is < ~60% VO2max, which lines up well with the study you linked.
watchout wrote:
2:07 for 800m (the poster said his relay splits tended to be 2:06-2:08), not a 2:07 marathon.
I certainly agree that MP isn't always = ~82% VO2max, but for some it is and that was a handy example to show the vast difference between 63% and 10k + 1:00.
Yes, let's consider for a second that VO2max is near 3k pace.
2:07 for 800m ~ 4:43.8 for 1600m ~ 10:07 for 3200m ~ 9:25.5 for 3k. That's about 75.4/lap, or about 5:03 per full mile. 63% of that (303/0.63) is about 8:01.5 (481.47 if you take out all the rounding used above).
Meanwhile, 10k pace should be about 5:30 pace (if he's well trained aerobically - ~96% from 3200m -> 5k [so ~16:35 on the track], ~96.5% from 5k -> 10k [so ~34:10 on the track]).
8:00ish - 5:30 = 2:30, not near 1:00.
All are rough estimates and for someone well trained, of course. The poster's 10k pace might well be closer to 6:00 pace, but that's still +2:00.
63% VO2max is still very near what is generally considered "Recovery Pace" or "Regeneration Pace" (and that's probably why it's called "Recovery Pace" or "Regeneration Pace"). After all, isn't that EXACTLY the reason for those very slow runs (to help recover from hard workouts)? By the way, I've seen it listed plenty of times where prescribed "Recovery Pace" is < ~60% VO2max, which lines up well with the study you linked.
Thanks for keeping it civil, RM.
With all this Boston talk my mind must have been thinking 2:07 for the marathon.
For this kid, given a 54.5 or thereabouts 400M and 2:07 800M, I would agree that VO2max will be around 5:00 pace, although I doubt he could run 10:07 for 3200m.
Where we come up with different numbers is that you are figuring 63% of VO2max will net a speed that is simply VO2max pace (in time) multiplied by 1.63.
My calculations are based on an actual VO2 that is 63% of VO2max, which should give a speed that is roughly 1.25 times VO2max pace (again, measured in min/mile). In this case, that would essentially be 5 * 1.25 = 6:15/mi. Based on this kids 800m vs. 400m time my guess is he's more likely a 36:00 10K type.
36:00 10K = roughly 5:50/mi. 6:15/mi would clearly be too fast for this guy because he's not well developed aerobically, and that is why it's dangerous to use VO2max for all but the very highly trained endurance athlete. Safer to use LT. If you'll humor me and let me say this guys LT is roughly 6:00/mi then 80% of that (in metabolic/energetic output) would equate to about 6:50/mi pace.
That ends up at his estimated (per me) 10K pace + 1:00. My own sensations as an athlete tell me that is more akin to the type of effort that would best prepare for another highly anaerobic all-out assault after having done one a short time before. Very easy efforts in between always made my legs in the second effort feel like they were made of wood; which is to say stiff, brittle and easy to set fire to.
MIC ITW wrote:
watchout wrote:2:07 for 800m (the poster said his relay splits tended to be 2:06-2:08), not a 2:07 marathon.
I certainly agree that MP isn't always = ~82% VO2max, but for some it is and that was a handy example to show the vast difference between 63% and 10k + 1:00.
Yes, let's consider for a second that VO2max is near 3k pace.
2:07 for 800m ~ 4:43.8 for 1600m ~ 10:07 for 3200m ~ 9:25.5 for 3k. That's about 75.4/lap, or about 5:03 per full mile. 63% of that (303/0.63) is about 8:01.5 (481.47 if you take out all the rounding used above).
Meanwhile, 10k pace should be about 5:30 pace (if he's well trained aerobically - ~96% from 3200m -> 5k [so ~16:35 on the track], ~96.5% from 5k -> 10k [so ~34:10 on the track]).
8:00ish - 5:30 = 2:30, not near 1:00.
All are rough estimates and for someone well trained, of course. The poster's 10k pace might well be closer to 6:00 pace, but that's still +2:00.
63% VO2max is still very near what is generally considered "Recovery Pace" or "Regeneration Pace" (and that's probably why it's called "Recovery Pace" or "Regeneration Pace"). After all, isn't that EXACTLY the reason for those very slow runs (to help recover from hard workouts)? By the way, I've seen it listed plenty of times where prescribed "Recovery Pace" is < ~60% VO2max, which lines up well with the study you linked.
Thanks for keeping it civil, RM.
With all this Boston talk my mind must have been thinking 2:07 for the marathon.
For this kid, given a 54.5 or thereabouts 400M and 2:07 800M, I would agree that VO2max will be around 5:00 pace, although I doubt he could run 10:07 for 3200m.
Where we come up with different numbers is that you are figuring 63% of VO2max will net a speed that is simply VO2max pace (in time) multiplied by 1.63.
My calculations are based on an actual VO2 that is 63% of VO2max, which should give a speed that is roughly 1.25 times VO2max pace (again, measured in min/mile). In this case, that would essentially be 5 * 1.25 = 6:15/mi. Based on this kids 800m vs. 400m time my guess is he's more likely a 36:00 10K type.
36:00 10K = roughly 5:50/mi. 6:15/mi would clearly be too fast for this guy because he's not well developed aerobically, and that is why it's dangerous to use VO2max for all but the very highly trained endurance athlete. Safer to use LT. If you'll humor me and let me say this guys LT is roughly 6:00/mi then 80% of that (in metabolic/energetic output) would equate to about 6:50/mi pace.
That ends up at his estimated (per me) 10K pace + 1:00. My own sensations as an athlete tell me that is more akin to the type of effort that would best prepare for another highly anaerobic all-out assault after having done one a short time before. Very easy efforts in between always made my legs in the second effort feel like they were made of wood; which is to say stiff, brittle and easy to set fire to.
Where are you getting the 1.25x VO2max speed = 63% of VO2max? I've never heard of that before.
That is where we are disagreeing. Slight correction, though: I'm not multiplying by 1.63 for 63%, I'm dividing by 63% (0.63).
For my personal anecdote - I always felt more recovered by a fairly easy run afterwards, and felt most prepared by a moderate run beforehand. So, in other words, for a 2:07 guy, I might run a warm-up at ~6:15 pace, and then a cool down at ~7:30-8:00 pace (probably starting around 8:00, but getting faster as I began feeling a little better). Whether or not that was "optimal", I don't know - it's just what felt the best out of what I tried.
I haven't heard of that multiplier outside of myself either, so no surprise you aren't familiar with it. Most runners don't have the equipment to measure energetic output and therefore don't understand just how much more energy it takes to increase "X" amount.
Overall, I get the feeling the optimal pace for rapid lactate clearance increases relative to LT as the individual gets more and more fit. For most runners in HS, they will likely run too slow, as the process is not very intuitive.