Return to 400/800

Get fit enough to train before you set foot on a track. you don't need high mileage for 400/800 but I wouldn't try anything intensive until you can run a hard 6 miles or so and come back the next day and do another hard workout (anyone can pull out a good workout - but if it wipes you out for a couple of days it's a sign that you aren't yet fit enough to handle the workload).

Assuming you are really unfit at present start with some easy runs but as soon as some degree of fitness returns change to easy fartlek (nothing heavily anaerobic) and throw in a few surges up and down hills. Basically , you don't need lots of steady paced running for these events but you do need a base of sorts before you can move onto intensive stuff on the track.

Juantorena's winter work included 9 mile fartleks and repeat 1000s as well as lots of weight training (Check out "Running With The Legends" for more detail on this)

Thanks for the advice. My fitness is okay, maybe like a 35-36 10km or something and a 16-17 5km. Was not planning to hit a track for quite a few months yet, just do some drills after easy runs, a bit of weight training. My speed for the 400m would be around 54-55 - seems to be my base speed.

If you want to focus on 4/8 and not just 8, consider starting to hit some weights in a day off from running. Deadlifts, weighted lunges, calf raises, single leg squats, etc.

Also start substituting a day of easy running once a week with something like 2x10x150m or 2x6x200m on grass w/90 seconds rest, evenly paced. This will allow you to start building some speed, but more importantly, efficiency in your speed, but without hard track work. Workouts like this will set up a nice transition to being able to hit the track later.

If you're 54/55 400 and 1:55, you're not really a 400/800 guy, or at least you've never really developed speed.

But assuming you want to be a real 400/800 guy start at both ends and work to the middle

GPP Period - As long as it takes to master all of this

Speed:

Hills Sprints 2 days a week 40m reps all out on a approx 10% hill with full (2-3 min) recoveries. Start with 1x4 and work up to 3x5 with 5 min between sets.

Drills The usual - 3x10-15m A's, front butt kicks, straight leg bounding on both speed days. Hurdle walkovers at the end training twice a week. Also work on ground response and achilles stiffness, which really is a kind of magic bullet for speed. Like this:

http://www.coreperformance.com/knowledge/movements/rapid-response-2-foot-linear-base-soccer.html

Strength:

Circuits Use Jay Johnson's body weight circuits and then move to his harder work.

Running:

Continue with what you're doing, but finish with 100m strides at mile pace

Next Phase - at least 6 weeks.

Speed:

Sprints 1 day a week 60m reps all out on on the track in spikes with full (5-6 min) recoveries. Start with 2 and work up to 5. You should do these with flying starts, unless you want to race 400's, then you should precede this with acceleration development

Drills Continue- A's, front butt kicks, straight leg bounding out to 3x30m and ground response. Continue with hurdle walkovers after running 2 days a week.

Pace:

800 1 day week, 200's @ 28. Start with 3-4 with full recovery (start when you feel OK). Progress to 12x200 @ 28 with 3 min recovery. On the track, in spikes.

Strength:

Circuits When you've mastered the circuits (Jay recommends including Vern Gambetta's leg circuits) then move on to weights. Focus on a few compound lifts - squat, deadlift, power cleans or cleans, clean to press. 2 days a week, after sprints and pace. Few reps, heavy weight, 3 x 4 - start with weights you can handle easy, and move up each day as you get better at the lifts.

Running:

Continue with what you're doing, but make one run a progression run or a farlek. Finish with 100m strides at mile pace. Make sure one run is at least 45-50 mins

Phase 3 - 4-6 weeks

Extend the sprinting to 400 pace work - 6-8x100 with a 20m fly in at 12.x with 3min

Make the 800 pace work denser Work down to 2x4x200 with 1 min between reps and 6-8 minutes between sets.

Continue with weights and drills at the same volume

Continue with running. Replace the fartlek/progression run with 4-6 x 800 at 5k pace. Keep long run.

Phase 4 - Racing

Speed Endurance - 1 x 200, 150, 100 all out with full (10-12 min) recoveries

800 pace: 2x4x200 with 30sec recoveries between reps, 8 mins between sets.

Reduce volume on weights (3x2) and drills (3x10m)

Continue with same volume. Shorten long day to 40 min.

Thanks for the replies everyone.

In regards to my 400m, at 16/17 I ran 50-point for my 400s with no specific 400m training. I used to be above-average in all events, including field. The past few years I have done no specific speed work, hence the 54-55 form I predicted for a 400m if I was to run right now. The main reason for a 400/800 focus is to get some serious speed back in the legs...I am thinking sub-50 eventually, nothing special but some decent speed.

As for my 800m, same deal - no specific training ever. Used my strength to go 1.57 at age 16/17, then never really focused on it after that. I believe if I was to get that 400m speed, combined with my improved fitness, I could in a year or so be looking at 1.53 or lower.

Will take all advice on board.

Should I also be doing tempo runs? I have never been good at tempo runs, struggling to hold 3.30 per km (5.37 per mile). Would it be more beneficial to split my tempo in to intervals? I can hold tempo pace up to 3km and struggle from that point up, 3000m PB 9.10 however.

I am happy to use this thread to update if anyone is interested in following. At the moment, I am taking Cali Guy's advice on board, however, have not implemented all that he has suggested just yet... looking to progress in to hills in about 8 weeks time.

If you want to add tempo pace right now, intervals are a good way to do it. Use the 5:1 work to recovery ratio.

But I'd suggest, as above, that you prioritize getting fast again over futher aerobic development.

For someone wants to run the 800, you're out of balance right now. Your overall fitness is good, so I think you want to prioritize running fast over more intensive aerobic development right now.

This will do several things.

1) You will be faster

2) Running fast is a skill, and hill sprints are an excellent tutor

3) You will get stronger in running specific ways

4) This will improve your running economy

5) This will help your aerobic development and probably help you with tempo pace

The traditional distance model is a pyramid, in which faster running is stacked sequentially on a "base" of slower running.

What I outlined is an "ends to the middle approach", so sprinting and aerobic runs should be done simultaneously

ComeBackTrack wrote:

Ideas on 400/800 training to get speed back in the legs and fitness to run 1.55 800. No current form in either - been a while since hitting the track. Start me from scratch.

Along with other base training:

Speed: A) short sprints uphill 4-8x 6-10sec with 3min recovery at or close to 100%.

B) longer ones close to 400m speed (90-92%) like 2-3x150 + 2-3x120 + 2-3x100m with 3-5min rec.

After this speed base start anaerobic power work, maintain the base you´ve built. Without the speed base you won´t reach as good anaerobic power as possible. Don´t forget basic endurance, LT runs, tempo runs, fartlek-VO2max work etc.

U.N.O. wrote:

ComeBackTrack wrote:

Ideas on 400/800 training to get speed back in the legs and fitness to run 1.55 800. No current form in either - been a while since hitting the track. Start me from scratch.

Along with other base training:

Speed: A) short sprints uphill 4-8x 6-10sec with 3min recovery at or close to 100%.

B) longer ones close to 400m speed (90-92%) like 2-3x150 + 2-3x120 + 2-3x100m with 3-5min rec.

After this speed base start anaerobic power work, maintain the base you´ve built. Without the speed base you won´t reach as good anaerobic power as possible. Don´t forget basic endurance, LT runs, tempo runs, fartlek-VO2max work etc.

Okay that sounds good. I have Clyde Hart's program and will look to implement similar sessions to him when appropriate. With the LT runs and Tempo runs, how should they be run in regards to 400/800 running? Should they be done as if I was focusing on the 800? Or modified?

Thanks Cali Guy, that makes sense. I am in the process of working towards your GPP as mentioned earlier in the thread. Drills, strength and weights are already implemented, and the mile-paced 100s happening. Once I feel confident in these I will add in the hills sprints. Already have a tempo session, one long run (which isn't that long...50 minutes) and the rest is basic running between 6.30-7.20 pace.

Thanks Cali Guy, that makes sense. I am in the process of working towards your GPP as mentioned earlier in the thread. Drills, strength and weights are already implemented, and the mile-paced 100s happening. Once I feel confident in these I will add in the hills sprints. Already have a tempo session, one long run (which isn't that long...50 minutes) and the rest is basic running between 6.30-7.20 pace.

Sorry, I was away from LR for a bit.

This makes sense. Going fast is a matter of confidence,

And make sure you work into the hills sprints slowly. Don't even start with 40m reps. Make the first session 3x10 + 2-3x20, and don't progress until you can do it without getting sore. For the first 5-6 sessions, always do less than you think you can. And with any all-out work, stop as soon as the quality starts to drop.

Your ability to go fast will come back more slowly than you can recover aerobic fitness, so be very patient.

Thanks again Cali Guy. Definitely will be working at it like I am piecing together a puzzle. I will keep updating this thread every few weeks, or when I have an idea or question for you - I have it bookmarked.

When I get to doing the hills, should I be treating them as a specific hills session day - nothing else? Or do you recommend an easy run in the morning, or perhaps an upper body weight session? Would love your thoughts on this.

When you really get into the hill sessions, that is the only work out on the day.

You should do your strength work on the hill days to concentrate the stress to your CNS, and to give you time to recover.

My guys often like to do a short shake out run the morning after hill/speed/strength days, even if the afternoon/evening run is a recovery run. They feel that an easy double the next day helped with recovery.

A big part of going fast is helping your nervous system work efficiently - and that's what the hill sprints and the heavy lifting (when you get there) will do.

You always want to be completely recovered when doing speed/power work, so make sure you have at least two full days between hill sessions. Some people have an even slower CNS recovery cycle, so you may need three days. If so, do that and don't let yourself be bound by the structure of the seven day week.

-eschew mileage

-forget hill training and all-out sprinting

-totally ignore advice to do drills, which only improves your proficiency at doing drills

-periodization is useless and unscientific

-ideally performed weight training is good, but since I can't teach it to you on a message board, forget weight training altogether

-strip your training down to track workouts that closely replicate the demands of 400m and 800m running. Each workout should be done at 100% effort and you should be so exhausted at the end of it that you can't do any more training afterward.

-rest at least long enough between workouts to match your last performance during your next workout. The goal is to improve every session, even if you don't always do so

-don't listen to anyone else in this thread

That makes sense Cali Guy, and was the approach I was going to take. As I said, will keep you updated with how things are going.

Asdfghjkl, as for not doing drills, I found in the past they have helped me significantly in leg turnover and efficiency in my running form. In regards to your 400 and 800m sessions, Cali Guy has suggested these sessions at a later date. Right now, I am taking the 'starting from scratch' approach.

ComeBackTrack wrote:

Asdfghjkl, as for not doing drills, I found in the past they have helped me significantly in leg turnover and efficiency in my running form.

You found no such thing. You arbitrarily ascribed those benefits to the drills even though they did not really provide them. You most likely didn't improve turnover at all.

The 400 and 800 are two totally different events. Sure you can run both but not at a high level. To be a good 400 runner you need to be at 200m sprint speed. For the 800, you need to be at 1500 endurance strength. I say pick one or the other.

OK, supposed 50.x/1:57 off of no specific training (were you playing basketball/soccer/ultimate frisbee? Or just smoking pot in the parking lot with hot scenester chicks?) at a point when you would have every external incentive to achieve (high school team/individual glory) but NOW at some unspecified age/circumstance, you stoop to conquer by ACTUALLY training for these events, maybe make the next Olympic tema if it fits in with your professional poker/yacht racing/polo pony breeding lifestyle???

This thread is a dead on arrival from the first post. WILL AMOUNT TO ZERO/ZILCH/NADA.