400/800/1500/3000

my guess - at worst he breaks 1:58, maybe sub1:55 at best? i can't see him going much faster with only 54s 400m speed and only 9:00 3K endurance (though the 400m time might even come down 1-2s with the endurance training/improvement).

Thanks for your reply. He also split 53.4 on the last leg of a 4x400 relay we did last summer. He's definitely lacking endurance, so I'm working on that. Do you have any idea what his 800 progression would look like if I continued to lower his 3K? Equivalent 800m times for 3K at 8.45, 8.30, 8.15, 8.00? I'm trying to judge this guys potential as an 800m runner; or whether it's worth advising him to switch to the 400m and pointing him in the direction of a sprint coach for this spring/summer to further develop his speed. Decisions, decisions.

800meters wrote:

I've got a runner with the following PR's:

400: 54.0

800: 2.00.0

1500: 4.16

3000: 9.35

This guy is more naturally speed orientated, and can run sub 25 for the 200m.

If I can improve his 3000 time to 9 flat, what time will he be capable of running for the 800m?

For 54s 400 speed, running 2 flat in the 800 is going to be hard to improve on. I would definitely work more on speed to go sub 2. A 4:16 1500 is plenty strong enough for sub 2.

I'm a distance coach; I don't know how to approach developing this athlete's speed in a professional, effective and structured way. Lifting and 400m specific training is what he needs?

800meters wrote:I've got a runner with the following PR's:

400: 54.0

800: 2.00.0

1500: 4.16

3000: 9.35

This guy is more naturally speed orientated, and can run sub 25 for the 200m.

If I can improve his 3000 time to 9 flat, what time will he be capable of running for the 800m?

that 54s does not look his best 400 at the time

if it was, then theoretically if he had perfect endurance upto 3k,

54.0 / 2'00 -> 4'05.5 , 8'55.9

if his 400 was his best 400 at the time, then he has a catastrophic drop off in endurance for 1500/3k races

still, with that 2'00, i'd have to believe his 400 was already more like 53-flat at worst

with assumed 53.0 speed already & dropping 35s off 3k, a very rough prelim estimate for 800 woud be

~ 1'55+

800meters wrote:Do you have any idea what his 800 progression would look like if I continued to lower his 3K? Equivalent 800m times for 3K at 8.45, 8.30, 8.15, 8.00?

luckily i have just the stats you need

( ignore the gender )

( & 53.00 = 2'00.00, so just +/- 2s for 800m for every 1s change over 400 & 1s change over 800 is 3.75s change over 3k )

ya, your guy can go 156-7. 800m. if you peak him right and get in the right race.

really you want to get his speed down to 23x in the 200 and simultaneously develop strength.

this means going to the gym and doing a sprinters program.

and add in 1 to 3 minute hard hill repeats - two sessions per week, along with 30 minute cross country runs in the morning and hard sessions in the afternoon.

here are example schedules of the great 800 m runners.

http://tonywilson.wordpress.com/2010/05/05/base-training-for-the-800-m-runner/

but do not attempt any of these schedules. you need many years to get there. and these guys started with the 400m speed already fairly developed.

i looked around for a peter-coe schedule for sebastian at age 18 and modify it for your guy. but i can't find any so let me make one.

Fall september to december. buildup part 1.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

the aim of this training period is to build a base for sprint training while adding strength. if you recover properly there is no risk of burnout with such a schedule.

every morning 20 minutes cross country run of 3 or so miles,if you are coming off a hard day make sure you run relaxed and recover. then do 10 x 120m stride outs fast but they must be completely relaxed. and with full recovery between.

afternoons.

monday- 10 minute jog, stretch (lightly).

10 x 40 seconds hard up a steep hill. 2 minute recovery.

rest 15 minutes.

6x120m strideouts on the flats fast but as effortlessly as you can.

tuesday

hit the gym, abs, all round upper body. light stretching for 30 minutes after you finish.

wednesday

10 minute jog, stretch

6 x 2 minute hard up a steep hill, 4 minute recovery

rest 15 minutes.

6x120m strideouts

thursday

10 minute run, 10 stride outs, 10 minute run

friday

10 minute run.

four sets of 10x40m relaxed fast. walk recovery between until breathing returns to normal. between sets light stretching.

10 minute jog.

saturday gym, leg work, leg press, leg curl, leg extension, abs, and upper body. lift hard, reps 80% max to failure.

lift for 45 minutes, take 15 minutes off, hit it for 45 minutes hard.

sunday run 60 minutes cross country. if you are sore, take it easy.

---- jan feb and march----(schedule to be provided later) real sprint work and continue the build strength

thanks for the replies guys. from the above schedule, which parts are most important for developing his 200m speed (and therefore making him faster at 400m)? from speaking with him again, he has no sprint training background at all; he just played some soccer which got him relatively quick. i'm guessing at best he's a 24.5 / 53.0 guy at the moment. i can help him work on his endurance, but the speed development side i know i'll struggle with. i want to get the best out of his potential talent; he wants to do 800m.

800meters wrote:i want to get the best out of his potential talent; he wants to do 800m.

if he wants do 800, he is doing just fine at the moment

his 400 & 800 from before look ~ equally strong events

you are worrying to much about 3k especially ( & lesser extent 1500 )

obviously he will need more mileage & better intensity with time, but worrying about 3k/1500 times is worrying about wrong aspects of his holistics

remember, rudy hasn't even run a 1k let alone a 1500 & he is 1'40wr holder !!!

main things you got do is same training as you are doing but with higher intensity ( faster reps &/or less rest, but ask a coach about this ) & lotta weights

800 is a power event, lifting is king, especially leg-press/hamstring curls/calf presses'n'curls & you must do upper body work to drive the torso, but try to keep body weight gains low

whatever you are doing for him, his current 400/800 are equable, so it's just a question of keeping on doing it but at gradually higher proportions + some serious weights ( see a weights coach - power increase with lesser mass gains )

screw the 3k/1500 times

an improvement woud be a nice bonus, but it means little for a 800 guy - remember rudy 1'40wr & he may not be able to break 4'00 for a mile !!!

Before track workouts and after warmup, have him do 5 or 6 x 40 - 60m accelerations early in the season, getting to 4 - 6 full out 40s later in the year. Teach him to relax but run fast.

Of course, strength will help with low end speed. (weights, medicine ball, short hills, itc). Make sure to do core work.

Don't forget about developing the aerobic system. It is approximately 70% of what he'll use in an 800m. Longer runs and reps on the track will help that. (maybe 8 - 10 x 400m (68 - 72) with 90 seconds to 2 mins rests. Keep distance up with 2 mile runs before and after track workouts.

Later on bring those times down 6 x 400m (62 - 65) with 2 mins rest.

I already have him doing a weekly circuit training programme which takes care of core work, body weight work. I've been training him as a 5k runner for the short time I've coached him, because he seriously lacked endurance. His endurance is a work in progress, which I'll continue to develop over time. This was my basis for asking how an improvement in his 3km will improve his 800m.

We do some strides before our work outs, so I'll implement your 6x40m accelerations idea. Our standard warm up and cool down is already 2 miles.

I realise that developing him aerobically will yield small improvements over 800m, and even smaller improvements over 400m. We're talking maybe turning him from a 53.x guy to a 51.x runner over 400m.

But what I need are the core principles of speed training to bring him from 53.x to 47.x (400m) or from 24.x to 22.x (200m). This is all power; so a gym/lifting programme and short hill sprints?