• rojo
      co-founder
      • 10 years ago, US was an embarrassment in mid-d ranks (none in Worlds final of 800/1500), now we are a world power - Why? 1/1/2014 6:43PM
      • rojo
        co-founder
      • David Monti has written a good piece on this subject:

        https://www.letsrun.com/news/20...e-running/

        It sort of shocked me to realize how much faster the US is now than it was 10 years ago. The improvement in depth is amazing.

        Ten years ago, Monti says only 6 american men were under 3:40 outdoors. Wow.

        -Rojo

        PS. I'll post a few thoughts later.
    • honestyyy
      • RE: 10 years ago, US was an embarrassment in mid-d ranks (none in Worlds final of 800/1500), now we are a world power - Why? 1/1/2014 7:13PM - in reply to rojo
      • honestyyy
      • The US may have gotten a bit deeper but the medal success probably has much to do with the lack of Africans and Europeans nowadays too.
    • Stanford Occidental et al
      • RE: 10 years ago, US was an embarrassment in mid-d ranks (none in Worlds final of 800/1500), now we are a world power - Why? 1/1/2014 7:30PM - in reply to rojo
      • Stanford Occidental et al
      • For the same reason we have no depth in the marathon now. Things happen in bunches.

        Also, in the 1500 we now have a few domestic competitions that are geared towards fast time trial type races.
    • Rain Dog
      • RE: 10 years ago, US was an embarrassment in mid-d ranks (none in Worlds final of 800/1500), now we are a world power - Why? 1/1/2014 8:06PM - in reply to Stanford Occidental et al
      • Rain Dog
      • -Drug testing has practically eliminated countries like Spain and Morrocco as MD powers on the men's side, and has cut into Russia's/E Bloc dominance on the women's. Possibly some effect on Kenya as well.

        -Post-collegiate training groups throughout the nation. Even Seattle, which has never had a pro running group, now has a an up-and-comer, and it's in the MD category.

        -The "Webb Effect". Look at HS times, especially depth, over the past 15 years, and it's like the U.S. of 1999 isn't even the same country as the U.S. of 2014. Of course, the internet is a major influence on this situation, as well as birth demographics.

        As a lifelong MD fan, the past 20 years have been a real pleasure on the domestic side. I see no reason for it to subside anytime soon.
    • Consider This
      • RE: 10 years ago, US was an embarrassment in mid-d ranks (none in Worlds final of 800/1500), now we are a world power - Why? 1/1/2014 8:11PM - in reply to honestyyy
      • Consider This
      • honestyyy wrote:
        The US may have gotten a bit deeper but the medal success probably has much to do with the lack of Africans and Europeans nowadays too.
        Please tell me you aren't suggesting that they've all turned to the marathon.
    • George Atlas
      • RE: 10 years ago, US was an embarrassment in mid-d ranks (none in Worlds final of 800/1500), now we are a world power - Why? 1/1/2014 8:14PM - in reply to Rain Dog
      • George Atlas
      • Macnamara and Leslie running 3:34 in a B meet in Europe and placing outside top 5. Its a new era.
    • Dennis Reynolds 2.0
      • RE: 10 years ago, US was an embarrassment in mid-d ranks (none in Worlds final of 800/1500), now we are a world power - Why? 1/1/2014 8:23PM - in reply to rojo
      • Dennis Reynolds 2.0
      • ALAN WEBB BABY! Inspired all of the runners tearing it up today.
    • honestyyy
      • RE: 10 years ago, US was an embarrassment in mid-d ranks (none in Worlds final of 800/1500), now we are a world power - Why? 1/1/2014 8:35PM - in reply to Consider This
      • honestyyy
      • Consider This wrote:
        honestyyy wrote:
        The US may have gotten a bit deeper but the medal success probably has much to do with the lack of Africans and Europeans nowadays too.
        Please tell me you aren't suggesting that they've all turned to the marathon.

        In the 5k/10k, I would suggest that. But this is about the 800/1500. Consistent and fast African/Europeans don't seem to exist like they did in years. I don't think they've moved to other distances, they just don't exist.
    • Rain Dog
      • RE: 10 years ago, US was an embarrassment in mid-d ranks (none in Worlds final of 800/1500), now we are a world power - Why? 1/1/2014 8:45PM - in reply to honestyyy
      • Rain Dog
      • Just read the Monti article: pretty solid on the immediate, pro-level, but neglects the base of the pyramid, which is HS and collegiate ranks. I will add to the latter (and also for the pros) the recent proliferation of fast indoor tracks. When dozens of guys are breaking 4:00 every February/March, it fuels the fire to new levels. I suspect this is where the U.S. has a marked advantage over the rest of the world.
    • Horst Girth
      • RE: 10 years ago, US was an embarrassment in mid-d ranks (none in Worlds final of 800/1500), now we are a world power - Why? 1/1/2014 8:47PM - in reply to rojo
      • Horst Girth
      • The 5K/10K events, heck I think they are middle distance too. Long middle distance.

        From the 800 to 10,000, US runners are training harder and smarter.

        Effective testing for EPO has diluted the pool of East African talent at the same range of distances.

        The prize money in the half marathon and marathon distances have also diluted the world wide talent pool for the middle/long-middle track races.

        Kenya and Ethiopia have as many great runners as ever, they are simply going for the long distance road racing money, and avoiding EPO.
    • marijuologist
      • RE: 10 years ago, US was an embarrassment in mid-d ranks (none in Worlds final of 800/1500), now we are a world power - Why? 1/1/2014 8:57PM - in reply to rojo
      • marijuologist
      • The reason has nothing to do with training.

        The stock market goes up...and it goes down.

        The US talent pool goes down...and it goes up.
    • Runnerlogic101
      • RE: 10 years ago, US was an embarrassment in mid-d ranks (none in Worlds final of 800/1500), now we are a world power - Why? 1/1/2014 9:05PM - in reply to honestyyy
      • Runnerlogic101
      • honestyyy wrote:
        Consider This wrote:
        honestyyy wrote:
        The US may have gotten a bit deeper but the medal success probably has much to do with the lack of Africans and Europeans nowadays too.
        Please tell me you aren't suggesting that they've all turned to the marathon.

        In the 5k/10k, I would suggest that. But this is about the 800/1500. Consistent and fast African/Europeans don't seem to exist like they did in years. I don't think they've moved to other distances, they just don't exist.
        You are right about the 1500, BUT NOT the 800. The 800 especially at london was extremely fast; world progress is still being made at the 800. Also, races now-a-days (mainly the longer track races) suck. It's a bunch of tactical bull-crap. Centrowitz is a great runner, but if the winning time at Moscow was say 3:32, he would not have medaled. Still, Centro is a great racer.
    • Bring Back the Mile
      • RE: 10 years ago, US was an embarrassment in mid-d ranks (none in Worlds final of 800/1500), now we are a world power - Why? 1/1/2014 9:06PM - in reply to rojo
      • Bring Back the Mile
      • MAIN REASON: The ripple effect of the Meb & Deena's 2004 Olympic Marathon medals and other successes helped change the mindset of American distance, and more recently middle distance runners, that they could compete well against the the rest of the world.

        If Meb, if Deena, if Shalane, why not me? attitude.

        Or as Henry Ford posited: "Whether you believe you can do a thing or not, you are right."

        2013 Mile Moments: http://bringbackthemile.com/ne...nd_in_2013
    • dfdsfsdfdf
      • RE: 10 years ago, US was an embarrassment in mid-d ranks (none in Worlds final of 800/1500), now we are a world power - Why? 1/1/2014 9:28PM - in reply to Bring Back the Mile
      • dfdsfsdfdf
      • I feel it is a combination of the internet making the world small. Before the internet, unless you were world class, your frame of reference was your state, or less.

        Now HS kids are "competing" against times posted nationally, it has raised the bar.

        The internet has also helped to raise interest in the sport, share training methods, etc.

        And yes, Alan Webb. He came along right as DyeStat and Mensracing were gaining steam. It was a one two punch that demonstrated to HS kids that we could compete at any level.

        You look at where we were at, which was not much, then comes:
        Webb, Ritz, Hall, Tegenkamp, Solinksy, Symmonds, and the flood gates have opened wide.

        That group holds, or held, many AR's and medals from big time competitions.

        It probably also helped a lot to have one of the greatest MD runners of all time, Lagat, join the ranks and set a new standard.

        Remember when Stember, Jennnings, and the Hausers were big shit. Hausers ran 13:20ish, Stember ran 1:46 I think and cleaned house.
    • Soccah
      • RE: 10 years ago, US was an embarrassment in mid-d ranks (none in Worlds final of 800/1500), now we are a world power - Why? 1/1/2014 10:03PM - in reply to marijuologist
      • Soccah
      • I probably sound nuts here, but I think the a major improvement in men's distance running(I'm inluding up to 10,000m) is due to the expansion of soccer in the USA. Soccer participation in 1990 was 1.6 mil, and 3 million in 2000. Travel teams and clubs became popular and they generally play two seasons. This means kids are getting more miles in at a younger age. They eventually wash out at 14-16 and make quick transitions to track. I made a list in the past, but here are some of the men who ran under 3:40 this season. There may be more but I couldn't find any articles online.

        Centro
        Rupp
        Symmonds
        Bayer
        Wheating
        Jaeger
        Craig Miller
        Leer
        Russell Brown
        Jeff See
        Tony Jordanek
        Andrew Bumbalough
        Lomong
    • rojo
      co-founder
      • RE: 10 years ago, US was an embarrassment in mid-d ranks (none in Worlds final of 800/1500), now we are a world power - Why? 1/1/2014 10:12PM - in reply to
      • rojo
        co-founder
      • Ok here we go.

        I liked the article a lot. That being said, I thought the club stuff was a bit overdone (and didn't like how he didn't talk about his role with the NYRR so we added that in there).

        I think clubs are great but many of the best mid-d runners in the US did their damage without a club.

        Manzano isn't in a big group, Centro medalled while at Oregon, Simpson isn't in a club. Now one could argue the clubs raise the bar for everyone which I agree iwht.

        I think drug testing is huge, particularly on the women's side. But drug testing doesn't explain why the US is so much faster than it was 10 years ago. I think the Internet has been huge. People are now training way better than they were 15 years ago. Every coach in the world can basically find out how others are doing it within seconds.

        The time trial meets, while they may have largely ruined the spectator value of track and field , likely have helped Americans realize they are pretty fast as well.
    • Consider This
      • RE: 10 years ago, US was an embarrassment in mid-d ranks (none in Worlds final of 800/1500), now we are a world power - Why? 1/1/2014 10:27PM - in reply to rojo
      • Consider This
      • rojo wrote:
        I think the Internet has been huge.
        Have the USA's dreams become reality?
    • South Eugene Rocks
      • RE: 10 years ago, US was an embarrassment in mid-d ranks (none in Worlds final of 800/1500), now we are a world power - Why? 1/1/2014 10:50PM - in reply to rojo
      • South Eugene Rocks
      • Fish don't know they're in water.

        Rojo, you nailed it with the internet. Having access to knowledge brings the depth up relative to the current upper limit. Not just the depth of mid-distance runners, but the depth of all human expression. As a famous man once said, "He will do things even greater than these..." So will we (or our descendants) end up transcending the current limitations of sport altogether as knowledge explodes with the convergence of man and machine. Once we are all cyborgs, I'd assume the entire world will be able to run sub 3:40, but I'm not sure anybody will be aware of it, like a fish in water.

        The GNR revolution will change our world unimaginably fast, in a way that Axel and Slash changed mine in 5th grade!
    • not a sheep
      • RE: 10 years ago, US was an embarrassment in mid-d ranks (none in Worlds final of 800/1500), now we are a world power - Why? 1/1/2014 10:51PM - in reply to rojo
      • not a sheep
      • Let me get this straight. Better drug testing is the reason US runners are running FASTER than ever? And explains the obliteration of our top ten lists?

        And thank God the internet is only available here in the US and not the rest of the world.

        The answer my friend, is pharmaceuticals. Acknowledge, move on.
    • CoachB
      • RE: 10 years ago, US was an embarrassment in mid-d ranks (none in Worlds final of 800/1500), now we are a world power - Why? 1/1/2014 11:03PM - in reply to not a sheep
      • CoachB
      • not a sheep wrote:

        The answer my friend, is pharmaceuticals. Acknowledge, move on.
        My team this year was the best I've coached, yet we were only 3rd in our sectional meet. My teams have won sectionals in the past with slower times. Does this mean that all of the small high school teams in central CA are doping too?

        Somebody nailed it earlier....the base of the pyramid is wider. I liked the point about youth soccer. Did all of the guys on that list play travel ball as kids?