critique my SUB 4 / SUB 14 base plan?

im not sub 4, but close. I would say this looks good for that 5k plan but im not sure youre getting enough speed for that mile goal, but i would only tweak it a little.

1. I would put a few fartleks in that saturday longrun. Just 5 or so hard 2-3:00 intervals anywhere on the run.

2. Strides on easy days. Because you are training for the 5k as well and thus not going the full speed route, doing a lot of hard 100-200m strides will become important. These should not be super easy, take short-ish recoveries (ie sprint 100, jog 100), and really get after it on the strides.

3. Throw in some variety. Those are good staple workouts, but you need to get some track work in so that your legs can move at speed on the surface you'll run on. I would say alternate the tempo day with a slightly longer/slightly slower tempo every two weeks or so (start avg. 5:05 for 6, then 7, then 8). Alternate the hill 400's with some 4's, 6's, 8's, and mile reps on a track.

4. Do some combination workouts. For these you may do a 3 mile tempo, then 3x800, or a 4 mile tempo and 5 sprint 400s.

good luck

Thanks, that is some solid advice! You're right that this seems more 5k-ish.

1. The hilly nature of the saturday run makes happen automatically. (I run hard on the climbs and easy on the downhills).

2. Great point, I've been neglecting those.

3. I've been holding off on track work, but I think you're right that I should start. (I only ever get injured when I do track work so I need to be careful).

My major weakness is probably speed. My bests at the shorter distances are a 1:52 800m, ~52 400m, 24.0H 200m.

Any advice on how to not neglect speed?

Figure out what you did to run 3:47 and do 10-20% more volume and then do it slightly faster (you need a bit over 1s per 400m).There is nothing really wrong with your program for a 6-10 week base. You have enough mileage (i.e. 50% increase over what you did in the past) and a bit of quality (a few fast 200-400s at the end of one of the workouts would be nice touch) so that when you enter a 12 week prep period you will do ok.Personally I would mix stuff up a lot more (i.e some 8 mile and 12 mile days rather than 10 every day, some days with 5 in the morning, and have the workouts in a 3 week cycle so you don't do the same stuff every week) but none of that stuff is huge. I would also drop the 18 mile run. They beat up the body too much for the gain. Better off calling it a day after 12-14 miles and getting a bit more quality elsewhere.

Good luck! Out of curiosity, what is your 5k PR?

During the base phase you should be doing work at both ends of the spectrum - that means working on pure speed as well as high end aerobic development near threshold. Look up JKs stuff on improving speed. Steve Magness also takes a similar approach in the base phase. Both suggest starting with something like 4 x 60m buildups. They have quite detailed progressions so just do a quick search if you're interested.

Good base type stuff, keep that up. Don't worry about avoiding the track unless you can't control your efforts. You can do tempo on the track as long as you keep it under control. With 24 and 52, you've got plenty of speed. But you can work on it by sprinting once every few weeks or so. Seriously sprinting. Not 'fast 200s' or what most Mid-D guys consider speed, but actual full-on 40, 60, or 80 meter sprints at 100% effort with full recovery.

My contribution would be to add something that's high volume at mile race pace, but with adequate recovery. 20x200 with 200 rest is my staple. Goal is to average current mile pace, so if you're in 4:08 shape, you might start at 32 and work to 30s, keeping the rest at 2x of the interval.

I appreciate the replies and tips thus far. It looks like I will have to alternate or replace my hill repeats with stuff on the track.

Would a "full-on" speed workout be on workout day, or recovery day?

I don't really have an honest 5k PR since I never race the distance. (e.g. my track PR is 15:00 from 4 years ago before I got faster). However, when I ran for a club 2 years ago I did 100% of my workouts with a guy who went 13:30, and he doesn't think that I would have been terribly far behind (I tore my hamstring just before I would have raced).

I am training solo now since the club had me perpetually injured with staples such as 80x200m in 30-32, or being on the track roughly 4 days per week starting in November.

Again, I appreciate your guys' input. I'm open to more suggestions for this phase (or even the next) of training.

If you get injured on the track and you're not looking to hit those times until outdoors in the spring, there might not be a reason to get on the track quite yet. If you are planning to end your track season on or before March 1 (meaning you are planning to hit these times indoors) then this is a fairly good time to start specific work. Otherwise, it's too early.

It's 17 weeks to March 1st. If you get on the track now and start pounding out fast 60s and 200s and a lot of repeats between mile and 5k pace for the next 12-16 weeks you might not make it through February. It's usually 6-10 weeks of specific work and another 4-6 weeks of peak competition. So count back from when you want to race at your best and plan accordingly.

The hills and strides are really all you need for base phase speed work. The fast stuff is not necessarily going to hurt you, but when you ran 3:47 you weren't running 95 miles per week either, so handle the track work with care.

Thisguy wrote:

During the base phase you should be doing work at both ends of the spectrum - that means working on pure speed as well as high end aerobic development near threshold. Look up JKs stuff on improving speed. Steve Magness also takes a similar approach in the base phase. Both suggest starting with something like 4 x 60m buildups. They have quite detailed progressions so just do a quick search if you're interested.

Who is JK?

Can you provide links to the progressions you referenced?

Thanks.

sub4 hopeful post-collegiate wrote:

My major weakness is probably speed. My bests at the shorter distances are a 1:52 800m, ~52 400m, 24.0H 200m.

Any advice on how to not neglect speed?

You have some speed, but I would do year round a few fast 150´s with 3min recovery, these will also help your transfer to track work, these strengthens especially the lower leg too. Injuries come easily if you neglect the real speed (spinting) several months and then suddenly start the track work.

Other than that your program is quite solid for base training, maybe a couple of lower volume days in a week would be helpful to avoid the risk of going too deep in a catabolic state. I would take some pure rest days also every 3-4week.

The famous John Kellogg you always hear about from Rojo/Wejo. Check out the thread "Training Wisdom of John Kellogg" (link below). There are several posts on speed work with the progression I mentioned.

http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?board=1&id=192559&thread=192559

Magness' basic speed work is in the "Training for the 5k" presentation.

http://www.scienceofrunning.com/2013/06/presentations-training-and-how-to-apply.html#more

Sorry I am too lazy to pull out the specific progressions, but it's probably better understood in context anyway.

Add sprinting (30m all out with 3-5 min recovery after) start with 4 move to 8. Do it after a shakeout

Also mid week long run.

It is great you do 3.5 all the time, but you don't need "just" a shakeout every morning. It probably would be better to get the shakeout in after workouts. So workout in am, shakeout in afternoon sometimes.

sub4 hopeful post-collegiate wrote:

I am training solo now since the club had me perpetually injured with staples such as 80x200m in 30-32, or being on the track roughly 4 days per week starting in November.

80x200? Are you shitting me?

BoredXCoach wrote:

It is great you do 3.5 all the time, but you don't need "just" a shakeout every morning. It probably would be better to get the shakeout in after workouts. So workout in am, shakeout in afternoon sometimes.

Why would it be a good thing to upset the rhythm you've got accustomed to?

Bigtool05 wrote:

80x200? Are you shitting me?

#I wish I were. Everyone in this club gets injured every year. Some injuries are worse than others, but nobody is spared.

#I'm sticking with the 3.5 mile AM run because it's on a nice (rolling hills > 150ft elevation change) loop near my home, and the effort is more than a shakeout.

#I take Sunday completely off every few weeks.

#I'm checking out the JK thread now.

Once I start on the track, is it better to start with 400s, 800s, or 1600s?

Thanks again for all the replies.

Nothing wrong with 80x200. You just need to do them at 5k or so pace.

Bigtool05 wrote:

sub4 hopeful post-collegiate wrote:

I am training solo now since the club had me perpetually injured with staples such as 80x200m in 30-32, or being on the track roughly 4 days per week starting in November.

80x200? Are you shitting me?

disagreer wrote:

Why would it be a good thing to upset the rhythm you've got accustomed to?

We are built to race. Not built to train.

3.5 mile runs are great for reoxygenating your muscles after hard efforts. (Read Joe Vigil book explains better than I can. I do not have a PhD). They do very little in helping boast your aerobic capabilities. You have to look at your training phases and say "what is my goal long-term and short term?" I don't see how running the same thing everyday to stay in "rhythm" helps either.

Being in "rhythm" makes little sense on how you say it. If you run 5 miles a day every day at the same pace, in your words, that rhythm. In my words that makes you a slow runner.

get a job