800m Training

energy systems. You can run fast on anaerobic power. In the 800 you must also run fast on aerobic power. Aerobic repeats at pace, like 600's.

https://www.evernote.com/shard/s43/sh/20df57d2-d2fd-4845-990d-840014ec9096/c168f3d97113f7ad00da98537f5e50ff

How fast is "at pace"?

San Vicente wrote:

The best athletes in the world have a 3 second differential.

Actually ~4 second is closer to the truth. Coe 46.87/50.87 avg pace = 4.00seconds. And Coe had a great endurance. Rudisha has closer to 5 seconds difference. Etc...

You're going to need to improve both your speed and aerobic fitness to run sub 1:55. Advice I got from a sub 1:55 runner- do not neglect your long run!

Speed isn't repeat 400s. That's conditioning. Unless you take long rests and sprint, float, sprint them. Then you're getting some speed training. Doing real sprint workout will improve your 800. Yes the 800 is about speed endurance, not pure speed. However I suggest building up your cardio, and also your speed and then bringing them together. Cross training on a bike or in the pool twice a week can help, as can lifting weight.

800 race pace or faster, like it says in the link.

It's Joe Vigil, legendary coach who got Brenda Martinez to 1:57 and a medal this year. Read it.

Sounds like you need a base and some distance. The 800 is half that distance stuff and half sprinting stuff. If you're running 53 for the 400 and 209 for the 800 you have a 11 second differential (between your average lap pace for your 800 and your fastest quarter) The best athletes in the world have a 3 second differential. It's reasonable to at least have a 6 second differential. SO I'd work on your aerobic base (long runs and the like) before getting too heavy into your speed work.

Unless if you think you are going to drop 5 seconds in your quarter (aka get a base)

hitmonlee wrote:

Advice I got from a sub 1:55 runner- do not neglect your long run!

Speed isn't repeat 400s. That's conditioning. Unless you take long rests and sprint, float, sprint them. Then you're getting some speed training. Doing real sprint workout will improve your 800. Yes the 800 is about speed endurance, not pure speed. However I suggest building up your cardio, and also your speed and then bringing them together. Cross training on a bike or in the pool twice a week can help, as can lifting weight.

You got it right. Often the repeat 300-400´s are overrated, and the REAL SPEED stuff with long rests is underrated. A long easy run done especially the day after a race/intensive workout is very good to flush the system and to keep the basic endurance alive.

Bad Wigins:

Did you just say (in your last two posts) that the original poster needs to do aerobic repeats of 600 meters at 800 race pace or faster?

The only thing Bad Wig knows about 800m training is linking to Joe Vigil's training document. Ignore him.

Search the sub 1:50 training thread here at lr and read all Oldsub4's posts.

Thanks for the input everyone! Yeah repeats had pretty much been my life in the past years because of my coach and I had no idea what I was doing. It's like at what point do we try something different? Anyways like I said before this is my first year having some base under my belt (June-Oct of aerobic stuff, although the xc season was less productive than I hoped because I had to coach/babysit the team) so hopefully that helps? And interesting how you said to keep my long run (I'm not really sure how to transition from the aerobic phase to pre season stuff to pure track stuff), but that makes a lot of sense. So a quality speed workout would be like hard 400's with decent rest right? What about hillwork (I live in FL so the best I can do is an overpass)?

SlowFatMaster wrote:

Bad Wigins:

Did you just say (in your last two posts) that the original poster needs to do aerobic repeats of 600 meters at 800 race pace or faster?

That's what a 600 is. It puts high stress on the aerobic system to maintain a high pace. Anaerobic power starts to fail around 300 meters, which is why 400's are less effective training than 600's.

I didn't mean, and didn't say, short-rest intervals. The whole point is to train the aerobic system to operate at race pace. Long RP repeats with full recovery.

If you can run 2:10, 2x600 in 1:37 is not an insane workout. Only distance runners like unregistered turd clearerup would think that. It's a relatively modest effort, hence the "or faster." With 53 speed, OP could probably do 1:35's easily.

Bad Wigins wrote:

SlowFatMaster wrote:

Bad Wigins:

Did you just say (in your last two posts) that the original poster needs to do aerobic repeats of 600 meters at 800 race pace or faster?

That's what a 600 is. It puts high stress on the aerobic system to maintain a high pace. Anaerobic power starts to fail around 300 meters, which is why 400's are less effective training than 600's.

I didn't mean, and didn't say, short-rest intervals. The whole point is to train the aerobic system to operate at race pace. Long RP repeats with full recovery.

If you can run 2:10, 2x600 in 1:37 is not an insane workout. Only distance runners like unregistered turd clearerup would think that. It's a relatively modest effort, hence the "or faster." With 53 speed, OP could probably do 1:35's easily.

For a 2:10 runner 1.37 is pretty hard.

The first 600m is the worst part of an 800m race, and you are suggesting he do that distance in RP twice in training. What, weekly?

Its important to train race pace, but what you suggest is something you do only as one of the harder workouts close to peak, say 10 days out. Its not something you do year round, you keep those race pace intervals shorter.

Start slow, like 10x100m in race pace, increase to 15-16, when youre comfortable with that, switch to 8-9 150ms etc. Closer to the season you might do something like wiggins suggest.

Bad Wigins wrote:

800 race pace or faster, like it says in the link.

It's Joe Vigil, legendary coach who got Brenda Martinez to 1:57 and a medal this year. Read it.

Don't you just love these kids who come asking for a program, and then when you give them that they don't even read it but want to be spoonfed?

The other week there was a kid who wanted to know what tempo pace was. Someone provided him a formula and the kid actually asked the guy to PLUG IN THE NUMBERS AND DO THE MATH FOR HIM?

It really makes me wonder about the education system.

Thanks for a good link!

Don't give one key workout and try to say that this is the key to 800m training. It is probably the most complicated event to train for. In general though, some up top have got it right. Get the distance up higher. As for intervals, the paragraph above suggests a good way to do it. Just remember general to specific as the seasdon progresses.

Bad Wigins wrote:

SlowFatMaster wrote:

Bad Wigins:

Did you just say (in your last two posts) that the original poster needs to do aerobic repeats of 600 meters at 800 race pace or faster?

That's what a 600 is. It puts high stress on the aerobic system to maintain a high pace. Anaerobic power starts to fail around 300 meters, which is why 400's are less effective training than 600's.

I didn't mean, and didn't say, short-rest intervals. The whole point is to train the aerobic system to operate at race pace. Long RP repeats with full recovery.

If you can run 2:10, 2x600 in 1:37 is not an insane workout. Only distance runners like unregistered turd clearerup would think that. It's a relatively modest effort, hence the "or faster." With 53 speed, OP could probably do 1:35's easily.

Hey stupid. You just proved yourself a moron. You haven't even read Vigil's training. There is nothing about 600s for 800m runners in that document.

You've probably never run an 800m. At least not faster than 3 minutes. Still you try to eff up the training for people who ask serious questions. You're pathetic.

San Vicente wrote:

The best athletes in the world have a 3 second differential. It's reasonable to at least have a 6 second differential. SO I'd work on your aerobic base (long runs and the like) before getting too heavy into your speed work.

Complete rubbish. Rudisha has a 5.5-6 second differential, and he IS the best athlete in the world over 800. At his peak he's definitely a 45.0 400 runner (I've seen him go 45.5 from blocks in February), possibly a 44.5 runner. Given he laps in 50.5, that makes a 5.5-6 sec differential runner.

This person should aim for 7-8 seconds initially, and that takes sprint work, aerobic work and anaerobic work.

Distance runners who lack speed can go a lower differential, because they can't get their 200-400 time down, even fresh.

clearer up wrote:

Hey stupid. You just proved yourself a moron. You haven't even read Vigil's training. There is nothing about 600s for 800m runners in that document.

You've probably never run an 800m. At least not faster than 3 minutes. Still you try to eff up the training for people who ask serious questions. You're pathetic.

What's your problem?

Why the ad hominem attacks on Bad Wiggins? Can't you actually discuss his points? I think he is making sense.

I'm pretty sure Vigil's 800/1500 video mentions 600s.

rupp-certified saladbar wrote:

What's your problem?

Why the ad hominem attacks on Bad Wiggins? Can't you actually discuss his points? I think he is making sense.

I'm pretty sure Vigil's 800/1500 video mentions 600s.

Dont know what the guys problem is, or if he is right as i havent read the full document wigins provided, but if you read what I wrote I think that makes far more sense than what wigins suggested.