If you were Shannon Rowbury would you let Al Sal change your running form?

So what about her form could Rowbury fix?

http://www.flotrack.org/coverage/234973-USATF-Road-Mile-Championships/video/176782-USATF-Road-Mile-Women

I see very little wasted motion.

Biomechanics and speed endurance: This is the standard Salazar mantra and his raison d'être. It will be on his gravestone.

When he gets to Heaven he will want to use an AlterG Anti-Gravity Treadmill even though there is no need for one there.

Fixitive wrote:

I see very little wasted motion.

Wasted motion? Is there any proof that wasted motion actually exists?

It is Salazar who mentored both the gold (Britain's Mo Farah) and silver (American Galen Rupp) medal-winners in the 2012 Olympic 5,000 meters, and among his contributions to Cain's training is improving her mechanics with better running posture.

Salazar accomplished that via a suggestion from his daughter Maria, an equestrian athlete at the University of Georgia. Maria noted that she and her teammates ride wearing a contraption called "ShouldersBack," and Salazar promptly put the harness on both Rupp and Cain.

I doubt there are any Kenyans wearing horse harnesses.

ddda wrote:Wasted motion? Is there any proof that wasted motion actually exists?

Probably not, and that's a valid point. But if you are operating under the theory, which Salazar apparently believes, that you can intentionally change form to reduce energy cost, I still can't see anything you would change about Rowbury's form. She has no obvious flailing, head bobbing, excess rotation, hunching or any of the other things people normally try to "fix."

Fixitive wrote:

http://www.newsday.com/sports/women-s-sports/bronxville-teen-mary-cain-becomes-a-middle-distance-sensation-1.4669700

It is Salazar who mentored both the gold (Britain's Mo Farah) and silver (American Galen Rupp) medal-winners in the 2012 Olympic 5,000 meters, and among his contributions to Cain's training is improving her mechanics with better running posture.

Salazar accomplished that via a suggestion from his daughter Maria, an equestrian athlete at the University of Georgia. Maria noted that she and her teammates ride wearing a contraption called "ShouldersBack," and Salazar promptly put the harness on both Rupp and Cain.

I doubt there are any Kenyans wearing horse harnesses.

I doubt there are any Kenyan equestrian athletes. It's not a high society must for debutantes there.

plus part of all the salazar moves are to initiate newbies into the cult, so to speak. They will be given secret information and a black jersey with a skull on it...and they will feel better and separated from the rest.

I'm exaggerating, but Salazar clearly loves the exclusivity and separateness of the NOP, and all this form correction is part of it.

I think this is just Salazar's way of signaling that he's paying attention to Rowbury...I doubt he will do much with her form. Look at Hasay and Cain - they truly need to work on form, but so far Salazar hasn't forced any drastic changes.

Fixitive wrote:

...if you are operating under the theory, which Salazar apparently believes, that you can intentionally change form to reduce energy cost, I still can't see anything you would change about Rowbury's form. She has no obvious flailing, head bobbing, excess rotation, hunching or any of the other things people normally try to "fix."

There is a lot to change. Noted below (just saw this thread after starting another, so I'll post here instead.)

Here's some advice to Ms. Rowbury regarding her form.

- Hands are being carried too low

- Hands swing too far back

- Elbow angle is much too obtuse

- Feet are not coming up high enough on back kick, especially the left foot

- Calves are lazy; toes not pointing back properly after toe-off (see below)

- Part of the reason the leg is not folding properly is due to the weak calves not holding the lower leg high and tight on the return phase, in addition to torse being too upright

- Upper body too upright; need to lean forward a degree or two minimum, which will help with back kick and proper return

- Left leg specifically has an issue with back kick and then folding properly on return phase; either due to past injury, lack of coordination, lack of strength, lack of intent/awareness or some combination of that

- Hip flexors are either too tight, or can't extend properly due to torso being too upright, probably the latter due to next bulleted point

- General static flexibility is too high; being able to do the splits and all sorts of otherwise-great yoga postures is not efficient. The desired muscle tension in the sagittal plane is being lost with too much flexibility in the coronal plane.

That's probably enough form advice for now, but to say the least, there is a ton of room for improvement. Salazar wouldn't have picked her up otherwise.

In addition to her form, and I know this is a touchy subject, but it's paramount at her level, is addressing weight.

If you typically race at 52kgs, shoot for 51kgs. With the same energetic output, and not reducing your energetic demand with any of the form advice above, you would run the following.

800M - 1:58.4 @ 51kg vs. 2:00.2 @ 52kg

1500M - 3:56.9 @ 51kg vs. 4:00.4 @ 52kg

5000M - 14:46 @ 51kg vs. 15:00 @ 52kg

To be competitive globally in the 5000M would take a further reduction of weight by 1kg (14:32 @ 50kg) in addition to form work to reduce the demand side of the equation. Spending all your energy trying to increase the supply side of the equation is a waste of time; the fitness is already there.

Her thumbs are not pointed up:) She also flails the arms a bit. Honestly though that stuff is all in the who cares category compared to footstrike and the like. Just eyeballing it she looks fine. Personally I would love to see some evidence that any of this form tinkering works. I want some evidence than in a pro runner than you can decrease oxygen consumption 1% by tinkering with form. As far as I can tell tinkering with Ritz form has done nothing to increase his speed or reduce his injury rate.

Fixitive wrote:

So what about her form could Rowbury fix?

http://www.flotrack.org/coverage/234973-USATF-Road-Mile-Championships/video/176782-USATF-Road-Mile-Women

I see very little wasted motion.

asdfaafdafasd wrote:

Her thumbs are not pointed up:) She also flails the arms a bit. Honestly though that stuff is all in the who cares category compared to footstrike and the like. Just eyeballing it she looks fine.

Personally I would love to see some evidence that any of this form tinkering works. I want some evidence than in a pro runner than you can decrease oxygen consumption 1% by tinkering with form. As far as I can tell tinkering with Ritz form has done nothing to increase his speed or reduce his injury rate.

Fixitive wrote:

So what about her form could Rowbury fix?

http://www.flotrack.org/coverage/234973-USATF-Road-Mile-Championships/video/176782-USATF-Road-Mile-Women

I see very little wasted motion.

Lean, foot-strike and back-kick are closely related.

There is no one-size-fits-all for any runner. Had Salazar tried this with Michael Johnson, he would have ruined Johnson. Coaches tried to screw around with Johnson's form when he was in college but realized it was wise to leave it alone. Johnson had less lean than any other great deuce and 400 guy. Johnson also had a very large upper body for a sprinter. Had Johnson the traditional sprinter's lean, his stride would have shortened to the point he would have been an also-ran.

If Rowbury also has a relatively large upper body -- I'm not sure but I think so -- and Salazar wants more lean (which changes her foot-strike) Rowbury is in trouble -- and Salazar is a dangerous dope.

foot-strike & company wrote:

Lean, foot-strike and back-kick are closely related.

There is no one-size-fits-all for any runner. Had Salazar tried this with Michael Johnson, he would have ruined Johnson. Coaches tried to screw around with Johnson's form when he was in college but realized it was wise to leave it alone. Johnson had less lean than any other great deuce and 400 guy. Johnson also had a very large upper body for a sprinter. Had Johnson the traditional sprinter's lean, his stride would have shortened to the point he would have been an also-ran.

If Rowbury also has a relatively large upper body -- I'm not sure but I think so -- and Salazar wants more lean (which changes her foot-strike) Rowbury is in trouble -- and Salazar is a dangerous dope.

MJ's torso angle is very deceiving. In fact, he is leaning far enough forward that it takes him pulling his head BACK as much as possible to keep his stability. It makes it look like he is almost leaning back, but if you clip his head out of the picture, his torso is leaning properly forward. As for his arm mechanics, he was simply ahead of his time.

His body control was phenomenal. Rowbury would be well served to run more like MJ. Watch the video from 2:26 - 2:28, that's what she needs to do more of.

Fixitive wrote:

ddda wrote:Wasted motion? Is there any proof that wasted motion actually exists?

Probably not, and that's a valid point. But if you are operating under the theory, which Salazar apparently believes, that you can intentionally change form to reduce energy cost, I still can't see anything you would change about Rowbury's form. She has no obvious flailing, head bobbing, excess rotation, hunching or any of the other things people normally try to "fix."

Shannon's perfect form can be sourced to its origins - her Celtic dancing days as a young lass in San Francisco.

Think about it - The Celtic dancing promotes an upright body stance and a perfectly still head....don't you remember Lord of the Dance?????

How say u?

If I were Shannon Rowbury, I'd be very clear that I was just there for the thyroid medication, and that I would prefer to have as little contact as possible with Alberto and the rest of the group.

What is the basis for saying these things? "Hands are being carried too low" compared to whom? Compared to someone with an identical build who is faster? Who is that person? Is this faster person faster because their hands are being carried higher? On what basis can anyone say hand height makes this hypothetical other person faster?

And the same questions for elbow angle, etc, etc.

I hear coaches say these kinds of things, but they seem to back them up by appealing to some sort of coach's intuition. Is there something more there?

Fixitive wrote:

I hear coaches say these kinds of things, but they seem to back them up by appealing to some sort of coach's intuition. Is there something more there?

Jack Daniels sent videos of elite runners to 20 top coaches and asked them to rate them according to running economy. The coaches answers were all over the place. There was no correlation between the measured running economy (in terms of oxygen use at submaximal paces) and running form.

That doesn't prevent tons of internet idiots to blabber about form.

I wonder how much slower Prisca Jeptoo would run after a year with Sleazy Sal's running form program.

To Be Disclosed wrote:- General static flexibility is too high; being able to do the splits and all sorts of otherwise-great yoga postures is not efficient. The desired muscle tension in the sagittal plane is being lost with too much flexibility in the coronal plane.

She's pretty darned flexible.

I've heard people say that good runners who try to do yoga are really stiff, but I've also heard people swear by yoga as a way of avoiding injuries. Anything objective on this?

Freudian Slip? wrote:

She's pretty darned flexible.

http://www.all-athletics.com/files/imagecache/photos_big_nowm/photos/shannon_rowbury_zurich_09_training.jpg

I've heard people say that good runners who try to do yoga are really stiff, but I've also heard people swear by yoga as a way of avoiding injuries. Anything objective on this?

That's my point. Beyond a certain range of motion/flexibility and you are wasting energy because the muscles don't spring back or stay aligned passively with as little energy.

The only form sleazy sal is interested in is angle of syringe.