Tony Reavis 'Quote Of Day' on Kenyan 26.2 success is BS.

ttc wrote:

I'm not talking the full article- just the Quote Of The Day part.

Talk about the training, group setting, etc... But not going home, not seeing the family to instead shack up with other runners does not fly as a reason for running fast. In fact, it makes them less of a man or woman doing so.

Now if the only way to a training group is far travel from the family- OK then. But saying "bye" to the wife & kids **in itself** as a reason for fast running = BS. And if it is, then family >> running. I've never bought that *purposely* punishing yourself, living in undesirable conditions, etc.. is a recipe for athletic success.

You're a moron. So what you're saying is that you actually agree w Reavis but you want to take one quote from him and disagree with it because you're an as*hole? What Reavis is saying is not that you have to never see your family to be successful, what he's saying is that the guys who are successful are so serious about training that many of them only visit their family once a week even if their family lives nearby. So no he's not positing that's the reason they are running fast. He's saying that they are so dedicated to running fast that they don't visit their families often. Stop trying to be cool and just shut up and learn how to understand what you're reading.

That is not what he is saying. It is a mindset. Running has to be #1 to compete at that level. IT WOULD NOT BE WORTH IT TO ME. Running must come before your wife and family.

I think it has far more to do with genetics and location than just the training group/location/mindset. Seriously, a dude starts running in 2010 and runs a 2:03 just from his lifestyle? I don't think so.

EPOpian wrote:

I think it has far more to do with genetics and location than just the training group/location/mindset. Seriously, a dude starts running in 2010 and runs a 2:03 just from his lifestyle? I don't think so.

I have to say I'm sick to death with the genetics catch phrase being thrown around after that sports gene book or whatever it's called. I'm sure the dude ran before 2010 but just not competitively and not part of one of the big groups. Maybe he ran in a smaller group and not as seriously. I know that it makes for a great story but I'm sure he ran before 2010 in some capacity. So when you have natural talent for it and then get in a training group of 50 or more people who are pushing you to your limit constantly, I'd imagine you can improve rapidly. When you have a cryosauna and nike catering to your every whim it probably doesn't do that much for you other than to make you more pampered.

Sorry, I think Tony is full of it and pretends to always have the answer.

Genes, train hard, train smart, get rest, don't get injured, eat right. Either you have it or you don't.

If Hall trained with the Kenyans he would not be a 2:03 marathoner.

Case in point: Look at how many 2:07, 2:08, 2:09, 2:10 runners that they have in Kenyan and can't get down to 2:03/2:04 using the same methods. I've talked with these guys in Cleveland and Flint specifically, and trust me, they will tell you.

Not everyone who runs 2:08 can drop down to a legitimate 2:03/2:04.

Tony, you're wrong, again.

Genes are number one. Training hard doesn't work if you don't have the ability.

I will summarize Toni Reavis for you - the reason Malmo et al were so successful 30 years ago because they trained in big groups.....BIG groups.

An extension of the college team. Bill Rodgers would have been a mere shadow of his actual self if it wasn't for GBTC.

The benefit of big groups is not from the hard workouts, but the slow junk miles (AKA the morning run).

Paula Radcliffe would never have DNF'd Athens if she had trained with UNM mens team.

Call me delusional.....but

And to you being sick of the genetic catch phrase...oh well, you be wrong!

I can give you dozens and dozens of examples, but with your mindset I'll let you do your own homework, except for the following.

Brian Sell got the most out of his ability, in a group setting and with a lot of things being taken care of. If he moved to Kenyan and did what they did, exactly what they did, he would not have run 2:05:00 and I'm fairly confident that Brian would agree.

Genes are number one and then you gotta want it, aka train hard and do the necessary things to be the best that you can be.

Argue on.

Smell the Coffee Beans wrote:

Case in point: Look at how many 2:07, 2:08, 2:09, 2:10 runners that they have in Kenyan and can't get down to 2:03/2:04 using the same methods.

That's a pretty good point.

We question whether Ritz and Hall can run faster with Kenyan training but there are tons of talented Kenyans that train the Kenyan way and can't run faster than Ritz and Hall.

So are Ritz and Hall more talented than the 2:08 Kenyans or do they train better?

ttc wrote:

Now if the only way to a training group is far travel from the family- OK then. But saying "bye" to the wife & kids **in itself** as a reason for fast running = BS. And if it is, then family >> running. I've never bought that *purposely* punishing yourself, living in undesirable conditions, etc.. is a recipe for athletic success.

You should stick to tanning advice.

I just pulled up the website, read my friend Toni's article and said to myself, "I need to go to the messageboard to set the record straight."1) Do I think a single-minded focus of TOTAL, monastery type dedication to running can be good for performance? Yes. My brother went from 30:06 to 28:06 in the 10,000 doing just that. So I liked the quote.2) That being said, do I think a lack of focus or wanting to win is what holds Ritz or Hall back from winning a major?ABSOLUTELY NOT.The idea that the Americans should just go out with the lead pack and they'll do potentially better is not a good one. RItz beat Mosop because Mosop ran over his head.3) The real answer comes in his third to last paragraph:

Toni Reaviswrote:

And that is totally setting aside the question of pure talent.

Kimetto just started training in 2010.

4) Memo to everyone, read this post from our friends at the Science of Sports:

or if you have more time, this book by my friend David Epstein:

- go read Sports Gene.

5) I just laugh when everyone says, "What are the Kenyans doing better than us?" If anything, I think they should be doing better than they are. They aren't nearly as dominant at 1500/10,000 in global champs as they should be.

You should stick to tanning advice.[/quote]

ttc wrote:

Now if the only way to a training group is far travel from the family- OK then. But saying "bye" to the wife & kids **in itself** as a reason for fast running = BS. And if it is, then family >> running. I've never bought that *purposely* punishing yourself, living in undesirable conditions, etc.. is a recipe for athletic success.

You need to think about why they are doing it. Their hope is to make a better life for their family. You think that is wrong?

Smell the Coffee Beans wrote:

Case in point: Look at how many 2:07, 2:08, 2:09, 2:10 runners that they have in Kenyan and can't get down to 2:03/2:04 using the same methods. I've talked with these guys in Cleveland and Flint specifically, and trust me, they will tell you.

Not everyone who runs 2:08 can drop down to a legitimate 2:03/2:04.

Tony, you're wrong, again.

Genes are number one. Training hard doesn't work if you don't have the ability.

And this really makes sense to you, doesn't it? Unbelievable.

Smell the Coffee Beans wrote: Genes are number one. Training hard doesn't work if you don't have the ability.

Ummm, mentality is number one. You have to have the "right" mindset. Without that you will never maximize your abilities.

Someone with lesser genes but great mentality can be better than some better genes and poor mentality.

Why are you so butthurt, Smells duh Coffee Beans? Your mentality is highly questionable.

doesn't matter what type of system africans train under, they gentically better/superior!

if you took them out of their evironment and they trained, ate, and lived like eveyone else (other eltie running countries) they would still be better....maybe not a much, but overall they would still dominate distance running...

some will never ever accept this fact, and continue to use junk science, junk psychology, and junk methods to EXPLAIN IT ALL AWAY!.....

doesn't matter if Hall and other give up their life to live and train with kenyans/africans....might make them better....but in end...the african they going to win!......90% percent of the time!

One more thing. Let's say you are on a college team in a very good d1 conference on a very good team. Many of you are or were.

Let's say you've got a 3:59 miler who is a star. You've also got a 4:09 guy who may or may not get to go to conference as a senior. Do people email some of the best milers in US history and ask them what you should say to the 4:09 guy to make him be able to beat the 3:59 guy?

Of course not.

They just are leaps and bounds apart.

This analogy may not be the very best as Ritz is a 12:56 guy in the 5k but in the marathon he is the 4:09 guy. His marathon pb of 2:07:47 is more than 10 seconds slower than the world record of 2:03:23.

Yes, I know the initial article was written for Hall who is better at the marathon. But even for him. His non-wind aided marathon pb is more than 6.5 seconds off the world record.

Let's use the college team analogy yet again. In the Ivy league where I coached one for 10 years, a 3:59 guy is dominating A 4:05 guy is lucky to score a point.

I don't think Ryan Hall needs to be taking advice from anyone. His career has been amazing.

When you grow up, you dream of winning though. When you plateau at your ultimate potential that is hard for all runners to take. I praise the hell out of him for saying, "2:06:17 is the best I can do." He's been searching for answers and trying but the answer is one people don't want to hear.

Hodgie-san wrote:

ttc wrote:

Now if the only way to a training group is far travel from the family- OK then. But saying "bye" to the wife & kids **in itself** as a reason for fast running = BS. And if it is, then family >> running. I've never bought that *purposely* punishing yourself, living in undesirable conditions, etc.. is a recipe for athletic success.

You need to think about why they are doing it. Their hope is to make a better life for their family. You think that is wrong?

No, it is not wrong- but at the same time, staying away from the family so much, if a runner doesn't "make it"... then it has to be seen as a bad decision. And don't reply w/ the predictable "won't know if you don't try". The end result says if it was a good decision to leave the family. That's how it is.

At 1pm between runs, staying in the company of your running partners, instead of time with the wife & talking to your son/daughter at home, does not make a better runner. Staying focused on diet, rest, etc.. should not require saying "bye" to the family.

Smell the Coffee Beans wrote:

Sorry, I think Tony is full of it and pretends to always have the answer.

Genes, train hard, train smart, get rest, don't get injured, eat right. Either you have it or you don't.

If Hall trained with the Kenyans he would not be a 2:03 marathoner.

Case in point: Look at how many 2:07, 2:08, 2:09, 2:10 runners that they have in Kenyan and can't get down to 2:03/2:04 using the same methods. I've talked with these guys in Cleveland and Flint specifically, and trust me, they will tell you.

Not everyone who runs 2:08 can drop down to a legitimate 2:03/2:04.

Tony, you're wrong, again.

Genes are number one. Training hard doesn't work if you don't have the ability.

You're missing the point. The point was that Kenya has so many "207-215" guys because they train like they're going to break the world record, with guys that actually do break the world record, and they hit a ceiling during this time. Going for broke and most end up broke.

But maybe those "207" guys end up as 212 guys without that training. No one is saying by running in those groups you will run 205.

Hodgie-san wrote:

ttc wrote:

Now if the only way to a training group is far travel from the family- OK then. But saying "bye" to the wife & kids **in itself** as a reason for fast running = BS. And if it is, then family >> running. I've never bought that *purposely* punishing yourself, living in undesirable conditions, etc.. is a recipe for athletic success.

You need to think about why they are doing it. Their hope is to make a better life for their family. You think that is wrong?

Hodgie, answer a simple question - would you have been as fast without GBTC?

It could be good for Hall to be part of a group. But if training with, say Abdi, Nick A & others, it'd be foolish for Ryan to tell Sara he's living with them instead, citing same living quarters will make him fast. Same w/ Ritz leaving his wife & kid(s) to go live with Jason Hartmann. And of course, when Rupp moves to the marathon, he shouldn't go leave his wife to live with a few marathoners instead. I just thought Reavis' point there that Hall, Ritz weren't doing this was way off.