Kipchoge's rank among al-time greats?

Nice list.

Sileshi Sihine and Brahim Lahlafi are 2 men who ran sub 12:50 and 61:XX.

Abebe Dinkesa ran 26:30 and 61:XX.

Also can't forget Sammy Wanjiru, he ran 26:41 on the track.

ScottEvil wrote:

4) Bekele -- obvi 12:37--HM is unparalleled, but unproven at marathon.

Thoughts?

Even when it's "obvi" for you, it is wrong.

Just looking 5000m - HM, best in combining all the PBs, is obviously! Gebrselassie. When considering all the PBs from 1500m to Marathon, it's not a question at all, that Gebrselassie has best marks.

But for sure Eliud Kipchoge's range also is very impressive.

ScottEvil wrote:

5) Mo Farah -- 3:28 to 1:00:10 is obviously impressive but unproven entity on roads.

60:10 is not impressive for a 3:28 runner. That's almost 2 minutes off the world record. How slow do you expect a 3:28 guy to run? 65 minutes or something? Or do you think that a miler cant run for more than a few miles? 60:10 should be around a tempo effort for someone that fast.

If he had run under 59 then that would actually be noteworthy, but 60:10 in a losing effort is just mediocre. There is nothing obviously impressive about it.

You have severely discounted Bekele's xc record. If you add his champs track and xc plus world records: he has to be at top.

said88 wrote:

Even when it's "obvi" for you, it is wrong.

Just looking 5000m - HM, best in combining all the PBs, is obviously! Gebrselassie.

Ok, I should have said 5k-10k, where I think Bekele is indeed the all-time best. Once you start getting longer Getb's 58 HM matters.

Mush, Those 4 would probably round out the top 10, but I'm envisioning this list as something like a duration/range composite, which is why I think Kipchoge deserves a pretty high spot. A gold medal at 5k in 2003 and a 2:04:05 marathon in 2013 is impressive.

To whomever keeps posting that Mo's PBs at one distance make his other accomplishments unimpressive, because you'd expect just that, I get your point, but I'm talking impressive in a more global sense. I certainly can't run 3:28 or 1:00:10.

applying the logic to Symmonds, he could go 57!!!

60:10 is impressive six weeks after 3:28. Focussing fully on the half, he can go sub-59!!!!

dddj wrote:

If he had run under 59 then that would actually be noteworthy, but 60:10 in a losing effort is just mediocre. There is nothing obviously impressive about it.

LOL, and Bekele is set to take down the marathon world record because he beat him by 1 second!

Kipchoge , tadese, mo, tergat, geb, kipsang, wanjiru kebede bekele no order

Who is second to Geb RIGHT NOW if we put together an all-time list for 5K to Marathon based on PB.

Note - 10K can't substitute for 5K

Isn't it Kipchoge?

yyy wrote:

applying the logic to Symmonds, he could go 57!!!

60:10 is impressive six weeks after 3:28. Focussing fully on the half, he can go sub-59!!!!

No, Symmonds is a speed based 800m runner. Farah is an endurance trained 1500m runner. There is no shared logic between them.

The Batman wrote:

LOL, and Bekele is set to take down the marathon world record because he beat him by 1 second!

No, Bekele is set to take down the marathon because he ran 26:17 for 10k.

good point.

dddj wrote:

60:10 is not impressive for a 3:28 runner. That's almost 2 minutes off the world record. How slow do you expect a 3:28 guy to run? 65 minutes or something? Or do you think that a miler cant run for more than a few miles? 60:10 should be around a tempo effort for someone that fast.

If he had run under 59 then that would actually be noteworthy, but 60:10 in a losing effort is just mediocre. There is nothing obviously impressive about it.

Also I would agree that 60:10 is not something spectacular for Farah, it's definitely not something every sub 3:30 runner could do. In fact, almost no other sub 3:30 guy could have done this. Around 65 minutes, that should be what you could expect from such runners (Cram for example). More like 70 minutes from a Coe-type. El Guerouj or Lagat maybe little faster than 65. I think Farah can go faster than 60 minutes, but for sure he isn't a 1500m specialist.

dddj wrote:

We have not been through this. Tell me what tempo run pace is for a 3:28 1500m runner. Then tell me what the pace per mile was for 60:10. Present the answers to these questions without changing the subject or calling me names.

It's rich for you to accuse someone else of changing the subject, anonymous internet denizen!! I started this thread to discuss where Kipchoge, who, I think, is under-appreciated, ranks when your criteria is success at a large range of distances.

Back to the subject at hand:

b bn b , See I think Tergat's 10k PR is just as good as Kipchoge's 5k PR, if not a little better, so let's call the difference between them a toss-up. Then Kipchoge's marathon PB is 50 seconds better, so that's 1 point to him, but Tergat has the years of XC medals, and I think those count as much as PRs, so I gave Tergat the nod.

But, overall, it's crazy to think that this indomitable, invisible-to-the-american-public guy might be better than Mo, Bekele, Lagat and Wanjiru when you put their whole careers in perspective, at least WRT range.

Then again Mo and Bekele probably have 3-6 good to great years left so we'll see.

I'm not sure where to put Lagat on my list. He is so focused on a few events.

dddj wrote:

The Batman wrote:

LOL, and Bekele is set to take down the marathon world record because he beat him by 1 second!

No, Bekele is set to take down the marathon because he ran 26:17 for 10k.

Maybe he should have tried that this year . . . he might have been able to make the Ethiopian National Team!

What is your problem? What is the difficulty here? I said answer my questions without changing the subject and without calling me names. You failed to do not one, but BOTH. Why do you refuse to do this?

Furthermore, just because Aouita held those records and rankings does not necessarily make him an endurance trained miler. It could mean lots of things like, for example, the distance records and the distance competition were weak (which they were in the 80s and you will agree if you know what you're talking about). Nevermind the fact that he was a threat at 800m. So those Aouita points of yours are completely empty.

Your first point (about the IAAF ranking) strengthens MY argument that 60:10 is not anything to be excited about. Unless you think 27:25 is an exciting performance.

This "rapidly decaying endurance" is nonsense. There is no evidence of such a thing. It doesn't just all of a sudden disappear between 10k and half marathon.

Looking through everything you just said, you have not presented anything relevant or convincing that 60:10 is not a mediocre time for someone of Farah's level. Again, for the third time, compare the tempo pace and the race pace. WITHOUT calling me names or changing the subject.

ScottEvil wrote:

But, overall, it's crazy to think that this indomitable, invisible-to-the-american-public guy might be better even Mo, Bekele, Lagat and Wanjiru when you put their whole careers in perspective, at least WRT range.

.

Why are you valuing Kipchoge's marathon performances over Bekele's xc performances? And Wanjiru holds the world junior record for 10k as well as being the most dominant marathoner ever. I just don't see how Kipchoge is better than them timewise and/or competitively.

dddj wrote:

ScottEvil wrote:

But, overall, it's crazy to think that this indomitable, invisible-to-the-american-public guy might be better even Mo, Bekele, Lagat and Wanjiru when you put their whole careers in perspective, at least WRT range.

.

Why are you valuing Kipchoge's marathon performances over Bekele's xc performances? And Wanjiru holds the world junior record for 10k as well as being the most dominant marathoner ever. I just don't see how Kipchoge is better than them timewise and/or competitively.

In general, you're right, Wanjiru and Bekele dominated in their main events in a way that Kipchoge never has (although the timespan of his medals is certainly up there). But I'd still give him the leg up on Wanjiru and Bekele on "performance over greater range of distancee." Vs. Wanjiru, Sammy was faster at 10k by 9 seconds, much slower at 5k --although obviously he focused elsewhere and lord knows what his true 5k capacity was -- and slower at the marathon. Kipchoge's 10k is .00499 percent worse than Wanjiru's, and Wanjiru's marathon is .0067 percent worse than Kipchoge's, so call the time differences a toss-up. But Kipchoge gets the nod for having world class performances at a wider range of distances, pretty much solely on the strength of his 5k medals and PR. It's possible that overall Wanjiru should be considered the better runner for his intense peak. But just like Nas probably gets the nod over Biggie as best MC because 2 decades of albums just allow for more greatness than 2 albums period, I weigh Kipchoge's duration here as the tiebreaker.

Bekele is more tricky. It really depends on how different you think world XC is, as a skill-set, from running the 5k and 10k. I think they're basically the same thing being contested, the same set of skills. Bekele is the greatest XC and greatest distance track runner of all time, I think; if and when he becomes a world class marathoner, I'll put him at #1 or 2. But right now, The range isn't proven, whereas Kipchoge's is.

Reasonble people can disagree on this. What's your ranking? Would you put Kipchoge top 5 in terms of range and career consistency?

Regarding Wanjiru, I see your view but the fact that Wanjiru set MULTIPLE world records and had such a great winning record sets him above Kipchoge to me.

Regarding Bekele, world xc is not at all the same as 5k and 10k. It's 4k. Significantly different (and Bekele DOUBLED for years in a row and still won). But even if it wasn't, Bekele ran faster at 1500m than Kipchoge.

So, Kipchoge has run one event longer and Bekele has run one event shorter. Regarding range, that makes them the same. So the tiebreak has to come from something else like quality of performances. Bekele has a better overall winning record, has a better record against Kipchoge, more gold medals, and the world records. Sounds like better quality of performances to me. You don't think so?