Holding marathon pace in training runs

I find that to be the case as well. But you're on tired legs now. Also, I'm guessing part of it might be that you haven't done enough of a warmup to get your body to the point where 6:30 pace feels fairly comfortable. If you do a two mile warmup and launch right into that pace, it's going to feel harder than if you gradually get down to that pace, which is probably what you do in the marathon (am I right?).

Personally, I'd rather run 6:20s than 6:30s, and for a shorter distance. Maybe 2 x 3 mile or 2 x 4 mile if you can do it. It will feel fast, but pyschologically that's okay because it is 10 seconds faster than MP, which is a pretty big difference. As you get closer to the race, you can ease it back a bit and train closer to MP.

Also, when MP does feel hard in workouts, at least you have the confidence and experience to know that it will feel much more manageable on race day.

Actually, on marathon day I just jog for 5 minutes followed by light ground stretching for 10 minutes and one short strider. I always feel good on race day and have to "hold myself back" to run 6:30, opposed to lower 6 if I just let myself go off feel. But on training runs, like my 6-miler @ marathon pace yesterday, I follow the same warm-up routine and then a 6:40 feels difficult and I'm dead tired afterward, and this was just 6 miles. It always makes me nervous that the pace will be too fast, but it never is on actual race day.

Also, I try to run one marathon-geared workout each week, rather that be 4 x 2 miles or 3 x 3 miles or a cut-down of 4-3-2-1 miles for 10 total, and these are usually 5-10 seconds per mile faster than goal marathon pace. I can handle these okay, perhaps it's because I'm in the interval-type training mindset, but these drawn out runs at goal marathon pace are really hard on me anymore. It's a bit strange that I can't run that pace very easily for 6-8 miles in training, even on tired legs, but I'm able to maintain that pace very easily on race day and don't really start "hurting" until 18 miles or so.

When I was in college, I could routinely run 10-mile tempos in 60 minutes and ran a few half marathons in the 1:15/1:16 range, but I couldn't run 1:30 back-to-back and it took me a few years until I dipped under 3 hours. Now, it's hard to maintain 6:30-pace for tempos, I probably can't run a half but in 1:21 or so, but I can run 1:25 back-to-back. Strange how that works. Guess I'm just getting old, huh?

I have a similar profile to yours, except that I am slightly older (35 yr old male) with a slightly slower marathon PR (2:55 Gettysburg 2013). I have improved my fitness since Gettysburg, and am targeting a 1:18-:20 HM in Philly in 2 weeks. I would guess that most of our training paces would be the same, as I currently do my MP tempo runs of 6-8 miles at 6:30/mi pace.

In the past, I would attempt MP runs of 12-16 miles in a marathon buildup and knock them out of the park, only to blow my wad in training and run a disappointing time on race day, or get injured prior to the race and have to adjust my finishing time goal. I learned the hard way after several cycles that MP runs greater than 10 miles just don't work for me.

I now follow a modified Hansons Model of running an MP run once a week during marathon buildups (and still every other week during my current HM buildup). I start at the lower end of 5-6mi and work my way up to a max of 10mi. The first couple weeks at the low range, I usually have a difficult time dialing into the pace (e.g., splits like 6:35 25 32 37 28 30) with my effort all over the place ranging from too easy to too hard. Usually by the third or fourth week I start to dial into the pace, and by the time I get to the 10mi MP run, I feel really confident.

The other poster mentioned some great points. I do a 2mi warmup and 2mi cooldown for each of the MP sessions, and also throw some easy strides in before I start. This helps make that first faster mile more manageable.

Certain weeks, you might be a bit tired, or catch a bad weather day, or have a long day at work, etc., so when something like that happens I adjust the workout to keep the total overall volume but incorporate breaks to make the session more manageable (e.g., instead of 6mi MP I might do 3x2mi MP w/4:00 jogs in between, or instead of 8mi MP I might do 2x4mi MP with a mile jog in between).

The point is to get as comfortable as possible running that pace in training so that you "know it" come race day.

Hope this helps. Good luck with your training and reaching your goal.

Same boat here. I've struggled in the past to hold MP for even 12 miles. The taper makes all the difference in the world.

You're a stinkin' racist.

What kind of mileage are you running? Just like another poster said, my guess is that you are running on tired legs and shouldn't be that alarmed.

I've run in the low 2:40's several times, but 6:15 pace for a prolonged period of time would be next to impossible for me.

It sounds like you are doing the right things. You want to do 2,3, and 4x interval work for 10 miles or more. When I do my 3 mile intervals, they start around MP (maybe even a tad over) and finish the last 1 or 2 reps at 10-15 seconds under MP. If you can do 3/4x3 at MP or under, I think that is just as good if not better than a long MP effort as the longer effort just tires you more.

The only other thing I do that you might want to consider is to have only one interval day a week and then add in the tempo-style, or MP work at the end of your long run. In my last cycle, I did up to 10 miles at the end of the long run at a hard effort, which ended up being a little over 6:20 pace. That run had me worried, but I ended up running 6:15 pace 5-weeks later.

As many have said here before, it's the total of your training and not one workout. If you are doing the mileage, the longer intervals, and quality long runs (not this long and slow crap), and then adequately tapering, you will be good.

Come back and let us know how you did.

From what it sounds like you really need to improve your ANaerobic threshold (or LT). If running MP is hard for you, it is because your aerobic threshold and your ANaerobic threshold are too close together.

Let me try to paint a better picture. If we were to test your lactic acid at your current MP (or what you seem to think it is, which is probably wrong), we should get a reading of 2.0-2.5 mmol. (If you wear a heart rate monitor this should correspond to approx. 88% of you maxHR. This is assuming decent weather and on relatively fresh legs).

OR you could be running at too high of a pace for your fitness and generating more like 3.0-3.5 mmol. This will spell disaster for you in the marathon as you will run out of fuel by 20-22 miles, if this is the case.

If you know your current 1 hour or 10 mile pace (if you can run a 1:20 flat half then it should be 6 minutes per mile on the button. If you think it is different/faster than that, then you are running too hard) then...

You should run the following types of workouts to improve it over the next 4 weeks.

workout group a

a) 5 x 2000 @ 5:48 pace w/ 400 jog rest

b) 4 x 3k @ 5:52 pace w/400 jog rest

c) 3 x 3 miles @ 6 min pace 5-6 min walk/jog rest

d) 2 x 30 min @ 6:20 pace w/ 5-6 min walk/jog

workout group b

e) 1 x hour @ 6:30

f) 90 min @ 6:40-50 (15 warm up/15 min warm down)

g) 2 hours @ 7 min

h) 20-22 miles easy (7:30-7:45 pace)

So the weeks might look like this

Week 1

M - recovery run (40-60 minutes dead easy 8:30 pace)

T - workout group a above

W - recovery run (40-60 minutes dead easy 8:30 pace)

TH - recovery run (40-60 minutes dead easy 8:30 pace)

F - workout group b

S - recovery run (40-60 minutes dead easy 8:30 pace)

S - workout group b

Week 2

M - recovery run (40-60 minutes dead easy 8:30 pace)

T - recovery run (40-60 minutes dead easy 8:30 pace)

W - workout group a above

TH - recovery run (40-60 minutes dead easy 8:30 pace)

F - recovery run (40-60 minutes dead easy 8:30 pace)

S - workout group b

S - recovery run (40-60 minutes dead easy 8:30 pace)

So three workouts followed by two the next week. Take a day off if you need it.

The final 4 weeks run all of your paces NO FASTER than MP or MP - 10 seconds (faster than MP). All workouts should be below (or slower than LT) for the final 4 weeks.

Let us know how it goes.

more work at wrote:

The final 4 weeks run all of your paces NO FASTER than MP or MP - 10 seconds (faster than MP). All workouts should be below (or slower than LT) for the final 4 weeks.

The final 4 weeks before the marathon?

No running faster than MP or MP - 10?

WTF?

Sounds like nonsense to me.

That's right MPMonster. Think of it like this. When you train to race a 5k/10k, are you at peak fitness for a marathon? No. You spend a heck of a lot more time working on your anaerobic system when periodizing and training for a 5k/10k.

That's why Geb would never race a marathon/5k within the same time frame.

When you run/train at paces faster than MaxLaSS you actually worsen it. (Even the Hanson's book gets this one right)

This is why when you spend time working above AnT paces you must go back and sharpen your AT. And you can only do that by working at paces at or slower than AT.

I had the same experience as the OP in past marathons. I would work up to 10 miles at MP and it was the hardest run i could possibly do. But this always turned out to be my race pace.

For 1/2 marathon training, my 1/2 MP runs were 10-15 secs a mile slower than race day.

The value of the taper cannot be overstated.

This is superb advice with excellent workout recommendations. Do just as he says

more work at wrote:

That's right MPMonster. Think of it like this. When you train to race a 5k/10k, are you at peak fitness for a marathon? No. You spend a heck of a lot more time working on your anaerobic system when periodizing and training for a 5k/10k.

That's why Geb would never race a marathon/5k within the same time frame.

When you run/train at paces faster than MaxLaSS you actually worsen it. (Even the Hanson's book gets this one right)

This is why when you spend time working above AnT paces you must go back and sharpen your AT. And you can only do that by working at paces at or slower than AT.

B.S. And you just keep piling higher and deeper.

Show me some science to back up any of those claims.

No one has to show you anything MP, this is a forum, take it or leave it. If you have any advice to offer the OP go ahead but don't just belittle someone offering to help.

I'm like this too. PR is 2:46 (run that a few times) and I would have had a difficult time going out and getting in a 16 miler at 6:20s beforehand. But, for whatever reason, when race day comes along I'm totally fine...till about 22 or so.

What I'm going to say is both encouraging and, perhaps, discouraging. When I first started running, I was about where you are. And I could go out and run 10 at 6:30 pace pretty regularly. And I did. Admittedly, I was 20 years old, then, so that might have been a factor. Too, I could barely break 6 for my mile repeats. I eventually (by slowing down on most runs, but ramping up my speed work) broke 2:30. On the other hand, when I was running 2:30 there would have been now way in H-E-double toothpicks that I could have run even 4 or 5 miles at 5:40 most days. So, maybe what you're describing is more common for people who are running close to their potential in the marathon. Who knows, though?

I think I remember reading an interiew with shorter during his peak in which he said something like he couldn't just put on his shoes and run 5 minute pace for 5-7 miles. He had to be in a race. If that's true about Shorter, then you're in good company.

MPMonster, here is a link to some information regarding aerobic vs anaerobic systems. The basis of the article comes from the work of Jan Olbrecht who is really the leader in Lactate research. And guess what? He's not an American! In fact, most of the world has passed the American system of training by. You should study up some more.

http://www.lactate.com/threshold.html

Scroll down to the section that starts with "Is There Another Factor"

I especially like what they say here,

"Most coaches and sports scientists think that anaerobic capacity affects only short events. But there is substantial evidence that high anaerobic capacity can dramatically depress performance in endurance events."

Understand that the OP has eight weeks until race time. In that short amount of time the biggest bang for the buck is going to be moving his AnT to the right and then working on his AeT (AT as stated in my earlier post) the final 4 weeks.

This isn't a complete coaching system but what I would do if I were coaching this runner and he came to me with only 8 weeks.

But you Americans can all do your Yasso 800's the final weeks and see how that works out for you. My runners will be WAY ahead...

Gelindo wrote:

No one has to show you anything MP, this is a forum, take it or leave it. If you have any advice to offer the OP go ahead but don't just belittle someone offering to help.

When someone offers nonsensical advice, they should be called on it.

I called B.S. on the advice to run nothing faster than MP or MP - 10 in the last 4 weeks before a goal marathon.

So my advice to you and to the OP is not to follow that B.S. offered up by 'more work at.'

Not sure where you live but you'll probably feel better in mid september when it gets cooler and drier. My way of working marathon pace is to attack it from both angles. Run 3*3 miles or 3-2-1 workouts not quite as fast as half marathon pace. In your case maybe 615-625 Then run 8-10 mile distances slightly slower than marathon pace (640-645). Or finish of your long runs (last 4-5 miles) at this pace. You put both of these types of runs in per week and you will dial in your marathon pace. That always works better for me than red lining MP tempo runs on tired legs.

How about some unbiased real science from someone or someplace not trying to sell a specious product?