Is my speed (or lack thereof) limiting my performance at 5k/10k/xc?

yes, your lack of speed is somewhat typical for a 5k/10k runner. Yes, it's a limiting factor. Yes, focusing on improving your speed is worthwhile.

Don't know that I'd begin with 200s though. Maybe start with flying 30s & 40s & gradually add distance. Doubt you'll work your way up very far if your season is about to start, but it's a good thing to work on next year in the off season.

I'm a guy, but when I first broke 18 I was a 15 year old sophomore more in HS XC. My 800m pr was 223 at the time and fastest I'd ever run 200s in workouts was 31 low or 30 high(can't remember). I was only running 40-45 mpw at the time and had a big aerobic engine compared to my speed. So I think you have a very good shot at being able to break 18, my endurance was good but not top notch, I only ran a 38:24 10k 3 weeks after xc ended. So take your 10k time and see how much better your endurance is than mine was.

Also, 200s develop speed endurance not true speed. True speed is developed by improving the often under utilized ATP-PC energy system which is only capable of doing work for up to 10 seconds. The way to improve this energy system is doing very short sprints and power lifting(Rupp and Farah do this, they kick will now). Rupp was told he'd never run sub 4 cuz he didn't have the natural speed, he's now run 3:50.92 and ran an 11.03 100m with a 2 step jogging start. Speed can be developed, but you have to do it properly. I like that you do drills and plyos, that's good. If I were you, say you do 2 workouts a week(Tuesday/Friday) I'd do a short sprint workout like starting with 3 30m sprints on Wednesdays and every other week add 1 30m sprint til you max at 6, take 3-4 min recovery(no more/no less, cuz that's the sweet spot for getting the ample recovery to properly develop the right energy systems). Do the sprints with a 30-40m acceleration then the 30m sprint at 100% top speed, then 30-40m jog out of it.(if you stop immediately you'll get shin splints so decelerate). As for the lifting, I'd get in the gym 2-3 times a week and do a good routine of Olympic style lifts and what not that mimic the running motion as well as lifts that strength any body part that you have a muscle imbalance in or tightness in when you run(Rupp was tight in the upper body a couple years ago, so he added extra upper body lifting to loosen out). Start with 3 sets of 10 reps with 30 sec rests for each exercise, do this until you stop improving strength for 3-4 weeks, then lower it to 3 sets of 5 reps with 1 min rest.

You should differentiate between top end speed and speed endurance. I'm not sure 200s do much for a distance runner, but if you like doing them, go ahead. What you should put a priority on is speed endurance and 400s. You should have full recoveries between runs. Don't worry about your 400m times themselves. Run a set of 12 400s with full recovery (about 3-5 minutes) at whatever percent of maximum effort you can. Try to do two sets of these with about 10-15 minutes between sets. Do this roughly once a week and see how it goes. I recommend doing them from an outside lane. Speed helps, but the benefits of top end speed are negligible for you. If you had more time you could do 200 repeats to improve your 400s, but it does not seem you have that time. Obviously, bring a stopwatch with you to time these 400s.

However, do not rely on LR advice. Get in touch with your coach.

2x(12x400) fast, with full recovery? that's too much unless it's 5k pace with shorter recoveries

i would NOT recommend doing this OP. 1 set would be fine, and that was pretty much my high school track teams bread and butter.

personally, i'd like to see you continue with the 200s and see where it gets you.

you don't need higher sprint speed. what are your 800/mile or 1500 PRs? or longer events too. 18:30ish = 5:15ish mile. if you can do sub 5:20 or sub 5 for 1500, you're fine for speed.

Your speed may be limiting you. To improve your basic speed, the drills are good, and the plyos may be good because 'plyos' is a very ambiguous term. I would recommend having someone watch your drills and give you feedback on whatever you are trying to work on/improve.

In the world of sprinting there are just as many 'paces' or types of workouts as there are in the distance world. Here's a good article that breaks it down for us distance types:

http://completetrackandfield.com/3020/do-not-neglect-speed/

Dude. Rupp is not running 11.03 with a 2 step running start.

reed wrote:

2x(12x400) fast, with full recovery? that's too much unless it's 5k pace with shorter recoveries

i would NOT recommend doing this OP. 1 set would be fine, and that was pretty much my high school track teams bread and butter.

personally, i'd like to see you continue with the 200s and see where it gets you.

you don't need higher sprint speed. what are your 800/mile or 1500 PRs? or longer events too. 18:30ish = 5:15ish mile. if you can do sub 5:20 or sub 5 for 1500, you're fine for speed.

I've never run the 800 (no speed haha). The mile (1600 actually) I haven't run since high school 2 years ago, but my pr from then is 5:24. I would think I could crack 5:20 on a good day now but not sure. As for longer distances, I've never raced a 10k, and have done a half marathon once semi-seriously, but it was just after xc off of shorter distance training, in less than ideal weather (70ish and very humid), and with horrible pacing. I ended up at about 1:27 flat, which was disappointing to me as I regularly do 13-14 mile long runs at 6:55-7:05 pace in training and they feel pretty good/relaxed.

And I wouldn't consider doing the 2 x (12 x 400)...that's a ton of 400s to run really fast with full recovery and would take forever haha.

Love how you morons fall for fake girl trolls...go out more losers!

Yeah, I'd thought maybe doing some even shorter stuff like that might be a good idea since 200s have some lactic/ glycolytic system or whatever element to them rather than just pure speed (ATP-CP). Those 30m sprints sound like a good idea; I may give them a try, thanks. As for the 10k time, I've never run it, but 38:24 I think comes out to like 6:11/12 per mile pace, which sounds about in line with what I could probably manage. I might be able to go faster but I have no idea without having ever raced it before.

7/10.

coach b money wrote:

Your speed may be limiting you. To improve your basic speed, the drills are good, and the plyos may be good because 'plyos' is a very ambiguous term. I would recommend having someone watch your drills and give you feedback on whatever you are trying to work on/improve.

In the world of sprinting there are just as many 'paces' or types of workouts as there are in the distance world. Here's a good article that breaks it down for us distance types:

http://completetrackandfield.com/3020/do-not-neglect-speed/

The plyos I did today included single-leg hops (exploding off of one leg and landing on the other, trying to hop as much distance as possible), split squat jumps (jumping feet apart while sinking into a split squat, then switching leg positions with each repetition by jumping one forward and the other back), bounding, and standing vertical hops. Also did drills including high knees, butt kicks, A skips, B skips, carioca, leg swings, etc.

Thanks for the link, seems interesting and I will check it out more soon.

mdmd wrote:

Dude. Rupp is not running 11.03 with a 2 step running start.

Rupp was mentioned of running an 11.03 last summer at the END of a workout before flying off to London for the Olympics. The article said 2 step running start. Galen has better basic sprint speed than Mo, but Mo seems to win because he's older so he has more mileage under his belt so he's more aerobic at the end and he does a longer kick instead of trying to wait til the final 100m.

@XC Runner Girl,

Yeah no prob, glad to help. It sounds like you'll be able to challenge for sub 18, and I'm looking forward to hearing how the 30m sprints work. Good luck!

I am not a troll. Just looking for honest opinions and input. Believe it or not girls do come on letsrun...on occasion:)

Try all of the following workouts.

1.) :10 hill sprints w/ full recovery.

2.) 150's w/ full recovery.

3.) Flying 30's w/ full recovery.

4.) Strides w/ full recovery.

Notice how all of these are short, but fast. All work on speed & utilize your ATP system.

Remember, according to Joe Vigil, it takes about 3:00 to recover your ATP.

Renato Canova sorta coined the hill sprints. (Check out Running Times magazine for an article on this.)

Jay Johnson has a good article in Running Times magazine on 150's.

Matter of fact, Running Times has an article on how to maintain top end speed during base running (July 2012 issue).

Option #16435 wrote:

Try all of the following workouts.

1.) :10 hill sprints w/ full recovery.

2.) 150's w/ full recovery.

3.) Flying 30's w/ full recovery.

4.) Strides w/ full recovery.

Notice how all of these are short, but fast. All work on speed & utilize your ATP system.

Remember, according to Joe Vigil, it takes about 3:00 to recover your ATP.

Renato Canova sorta coined the hill sprints. (Check out Running Times magazine for an article on this.)

Jay Johnson has a good article in Running Times magazine on 150's.

Matter of fact, Running Times has an article on how to maintain top end speed during base running (July 2012 issue).

I actually drew some of my "inspiration" for these workouts from that an RT article from this month haha, along with some stuff I saw on this message board. Most of the plyometrics I did were the ones from the article. I also remember having read that Jay Johnson RT article a while back; good stuff, it talks about flying 30's as well as 150's I believe. I'm thinking of trying some of that stuff out in coming weeks too. Also I did include some steep 10sec hill sprints after the 200s this time, not sure if I mentioned that before or not.

I'm thinking of incorporating more short stuff like flying 30's/40's and/or the "in-out" 150's Jay Johnson wrote about, but still keeping at least one trial of 200m nearly all out every couple weeks along with the other stuff just to gauge how my speed is coming along. Any thoughts on what my 200m should ultimately be at if I want to be running sub 18 5k's and have decent speed?

I love how the OP pretended to be a female because he knew it would quadruple the number of responses he got and guys would be writing paragraph analyses instead of "do speed-work moron"

baited hard. nice work man.

You're going off in the wrong direction. Speed is not the limiting factor with your goals in mind. If you were training for the 800/1500, fine.

There are people who can break 17:00 for 5K and would be hard pressed to break 30 seconds in the 200m.

What you need is mileage, lots of threshold, and speed endurance.

mgm wrote:

You're going off in the wrong direction. Speed is not the limiting factor with your goals in mind. If you were training for the 800/1500, fine.

There are people who can break 17:00 for 5K and would be hard pressed to break 30 seconds in the 200m.

What you need is mileage, lots of threshold, and speed endurance.

Lol. She can't break 30. So she needs to work on it.