Success on 140 mpw?

16:53, as you probably know, isn't fast. Nor is it slow. 140mpw consistently for YEARS could get you 16:00 or 13:40. It could get you 2:45 or 2:15. What are your running goals? Do you enjoy racing? Do you enjoy racing 5k, or would you enjoy racing a 50-miler?

You probably don't know the answers for sure, since you're 18. So do what you enjoy (running a lot) and see where it takes you. I know it would be nice to know what the hard work you're doing now will do for you, but since everyone's different you won't know until you've done it. The good news is, your mindset is similar to many who have had success with high mileage.

I would predict similar success for you, but there are many definitions of success.

` wrote:

16:53, as you probably know, isn't fast. Nor is it slow. 140mpw consistently for YEARS could get you 16:00 or 13:40. It could get you 2:45 or 2:15. What are your running goals? Do you enjoy racing? Do you enjoy racing 5k, or would you enjoy racing a 50-miler?

You probably don't know the answers for sure, since you're 18. So do what you enjoy (running a lot) and see where it takes you. I know it would be nice to know what the hard work you're doing now will do for you, but since everyone's different you won't know until you've done it. The good news is, your mindset is similar to many who have had success with high mileage.

I would predict similar success for you, but there are many definitions of success.

I would be very happy with a sub 16 5k, it would make me feel like a very elite road racer at the local level. Even as a 1653 guy I'm the 2nd fastest in my town of 51k people(Fastest is a 109 half marathoner).

I like racing, but won't race frequently until I move out in a couple years from my parent's house. I live in Albany Oregon, and will likely move somewhere closer to a good racing scene(like Eugene). For now, I'll race sparingly. There's a couple races I might do this summer, and a couple I want to do in November. Not sure after that though, I'll have to check the local race calendar.

I want to train seriously for at least 10 years(til I'm 28). In that time, my major goal is to run a sub 230 marathon, and eventually after that to do the 153 ultra marathon from Athens to Sparta as my last competitive race. I mostly see myself as a marathoner, I'm better the longer the race gets. My HS coaches say I'm suited for marathons and even say that I may have the most potential in ultra marathons although I have no intention of doing any ultras besides that one 153 miler.

Although my primary focus after I move out will be the marathon, I'll do plenty of 5k/10k road races and even a few half marathons, kind of like Bill Rodgers. Since I won't do much if any speed work, the races will be like my speed work to get me ready for major races and marathons. Once I move out I plan on racing 2-3 marathons a year with 15-20 total races a year.

troll

16:53 off of 60mpw suggests you could be a sub-2:30 marathoner. Especially running 5000+ miles per year. Do a 10k test race every now and again to check fitness. Speed work is still your friend though. Don't completely abandon it.

I live in Eugene. If you move here you'll have plenty of faster people to run with, which will almost instantly make you faster (especially if you're keeping up the high mileage).

If you don't know of it already, check out

http://eclecticedgeracing.com/Race_Calendar_2.html

if you're ever looking for races.

[quote]` wrote:

I live in Eugene. If you move here you'll have plenty of faster people to run with, which will almost instantly make you faster (especially if you're keeping up the high mileage).

If you don't know of it already, check out

http://eclecticedgeracing.com/Race_Calendar_2.html

if you're ever looking for races.[/quote

Yeah, I already check that site to find most of my races. Are there any great trails in Eugene besides Pre's Trail? And what are some ideal spots of town to live(as in close to trails, good routes, away from crime, and such)?

Faux Marah wrote:

16:53 off of 60mpw suggests you could be a sub-2:30 marathoner. Especially running 5000+ miles per year. Do a 10k test race every now and again to check fitness. Speed work is still your friend though. Don't completely abandon it.

Thanks, good to hear that sub 230 is a realistic goal down the road. There's a pretty good 10k in Eugene in November I'll probably do every year, and I'll probably do whatever other 10ks and such I can find. I really like 10ks, its just a good distance. I love racing 10k and tempoing 10k. Its just a fun distance to run at a hard pace.

I'll kind of treat races as my speed work. I'll still push the pace on a run if I feel good, which would be similar to a tempo run. And I might do an occasional speed workout here or there if I really feel like comparing times from old workouts after a PR or something. Also, I have a friend and former teammate who's focusing on the mile. It's on our bucket list to do "the workout" from Once A Runner together some day in 5 or so years before he moves up in distance from the mile, so that's at least one speed workout lol.

I used to train 140-160 as base work, once the real training started, I'd still keep it around 120 until tapering.

If you're going to just run mileage for base or strength, speed work isn't essential at all. Strides for turnover and form are a good thing to do though. Or take a couple of sessions a week at the track and run 20X200 or 16X400, just to keep turnover up.

Sub 17 isn't great but you're 18 and pretty much going to be running solo unless you can hook up with a good group or coach.

Don't be surprised to see times drop and then plateau until you start making changes in training. Either resting for races, doing workouts, or even starting to run at a faster training pace.

Nietzsche "That which doesn't kill you, will make you stronger!"

it saddens me that you're putting yourself through this at age 18...99.9% of the population would get hurt quickly doing 140 mpw off of under a year of decent base mileage. typically people don't jump to over 100 mpw until they've done over 50 mpw for years and have tried out 70/80 mpw. you're just jumping into it, assuming it will work. what's wrong with 80 mpw? if your goal is sub 2:30 in the next 10 years, why are you starting off with max volume now? you could build to that in 5 years, then experiment for 5 years and figure out your perfect schedule.

i hope you can last over a month of this, but i doubt it. also, you should post your weeklies up here and how you feel, maybe even diet/sleep.

and just to let you know, i went from 17:03 to 15:xx in just a few months by going up to 75 mpw. that's all it took. until next track season i'd just like to average about 65 with peaks of 80s. even though the volume isn't much more, consistency will help out a lot and i could be sub 15.

Once real life starts for you (college, job, whatever), you probably won't have the time and energy to run 140 MPW. Remember, BR was pretty much a full time runner.

it saddens me that you're putting yourself through this at age 18...99.9% of the population would get hurt quickly doing 140 mpw off of under a year of decent base mileage. typically people don't jump to over 100 mpw until they've done over 50 mpw for years and have tried out 70/80 mpw. you're just jumping into it, assuming it will work. what's wrong with 80 mpw? if your goal is sub 2:30 in the next 10 years, why are you starting off with max volume now? you could build to that in 5 years, then experiment for 5 years and figure out your perfect schedule.

i hope you can last over a month of this, but i doubt it. also, you should post your weeklies up here and how you feel, maybe even diet/sleep.

and just to let you know, i went from 17:03 to 15:xx in just a few months by going up to 75 mpw. that's all it took. until next track season i'd just like to average about 65 with peaks of 80s. even though the volume isn't much more, consistency will help out a lot and i could be sub 15.

[/quote]

Wisely said

reed wrote:

typically people don't jump to over 100 mpw until they've done over 50 mpw for years and have tried out 70/80 mpw. you're just jumping into it, assuming it will work.

Agreed. I've spent 10+ years at the 80-90 mpw range and I've found I still can't make the jump to consistently running over 100 for more than a few consecutive weeks without getting sick, injured or burned out. I could not even imaging trying to make the jump from 60 to 140.

Did the old school guys you are so fond of jump right into 140 miles a week right after high school? You are looking at what they did when they got to the top of the mountain, while ignoring what they did and how long it took them to get to the top.

Why would you stop at 140 miles? You're hoping to get increased fitness from the mileage bump. Shouldn't you continue to work on that mileage jump so you get the continued stimulus? You doubled your mileage in a year? Going from 70ish to 140 in a year is like going from 140 to 200, Then you can go from 200 to 250. See how logical that sounds?

If you are truly serious about getting better, you should slowly add the mileage and intensity and bump up the stimulus. If you follow your desired plan, I think you'll just burn out and get frustrated. And why lack the speedwork? You are young and need to work on it while it's still there.

Experience has shown that long term development is best facilitated by periods of high mileage training with interspersed periods of moderate mileage. You may develop a bit faster if you keep your mileage high, but you'll make some sacrifice to your long term development. I would wait a few years before keeping the mileage consistently high. Do 4-6 weeks really high, then back off for a month.

Also, you're planning a long-term, serious investment in your running. You owe it to yourself to get really educated about training. Your distaste for speedwork isn't unusual among true slow twitch guys, but you're selling yourself short if you stick to only LSD. You don't even need to step foot on a track if you don't want to, but you should have more varied stimuli if you want to reach your potential.

Finally, I'm curious just how slowly you're running. Your mileage buildup has been huge, and it's impressive that you're holding together. If you're able to get those miles in only by going super slow, then I would definitely cut back the mileage and pick up the pace a bit. Faster aerobic paces are much more efficient at facilitating adaptations. Just a random example, assuming that you recover well, you'd be better off with 90 mpw at 6:45 pace than 140 mpw at 8:15 pace.

p.s. Props to you. You're experimenting with something you enjoy, and you'll doubtless improve for years to come. Unlike a lot of people here, I don't see high mileage as suicide. In my experience, Letsrunners think any mileage higher than they were running when they got their PRs is too much. The vast majority of people on this site--heck, running in the US--still don't run high mileage. They run moderate mileage, which is better than the low mileage Americans were running two decades ago. But high mileage remains the ticket to long term development, so long as you're smart about your buildup.

800 dude wrote:

Finally, I'm curious just how slowly you're running. Your mileage buildup has been huge, and it's impressive that you're holding together. If you're able to get those miles in only by going super slow, then I would definitely cut back the mileage and pick up the pace a bit. Faster aerobic paces are much more efficient at facilitating adaptations. Just a random example, assuming that you recover well, you'd be better off with 90 mpw at 6:45 pace than 140 mpw at 8:15 pace.

Okay, so I've seen the guy's running log. 6:45 pace would kill him. He does "tempos" at 6:35 pace. Most of his runs are at 7:30 pace. He is in for a rude awakening once he starts university or working. Running 17.5 hours a week is not sustainable when you have other obligations. This Ian Edwards type training won't really do much for him, especially if he doesn't do anything to keep his turnover up.

I think I posted some of this for you before. On a thread about Amby, HRE posted, "

Amby sort of had two, or even three careers. After graduating from Wesleyan in 1969, he wasn't at the top of his game for several years. I think he'd turn in the occasional sub 2:30 marathon. Then in 1975-76 he had a revival running a 2:18 marathon and eventually finishing 9th or 10th at the '76 Olympic Trials marathon.

In March of 1976 we were riding a bus to the start of the national 30km championships and sitting next to each other. I asked him why he was fast again and he told me that he thought the key was that he did a track session each week. Nothing spectacular, he went on, maybe 8-10x440 in 72, added to about 100 mpw. I asked how he reconciled his new belief in the effectiveness of fast work with his earlier pronouncements about the value of slow training.

He told me that in earlier years, when he had said all he did was train slowly, he meant it. But, he went on, when he said that he only trained slowly, he had overlooked the fact that he was running for a college team and racing almost year round sometimes three times a week at distances from one to six miles. He hadn't understood it at the time, he told me, but those races had been speedwork. He said that when he was no longer on a university team his racing frequency went way down and he got much slower until it finally dawned on him that he did need a bit of faster work.

So it might be that in school he got slower with the intervals because piling them on top of two or three races was just too much fast work."

And of course you know that Bill Rogers used to race just about every weekend as well.

So from two of your own examples, if you are doing so much slow running that you can't race every weekend, you are not training like the 70s guys. They didn't do speed work like your HS but they did practice running fast.

You should just go straight to Ultra running. They on focus on the More, More, More.. aspect of running while neglecting/shunning speed or anything smelling of fast running.

You seem to have a great "ultra mindset." In that you like to do more just for the sake of doing more.

At age 18 I'd still be looking to actually attempt to run fast, but that's just me.

Ok, so I'm going to try and address a few things in no particular order:

1) I do most of my runs at 730 pace. I have no intention of doing more than 140 mpw. My increased stimulus is going to be increasing the pace on my daily runs as I get faster and more fit year to year. If now I do 140 mpw at 730 pace, if I can do 140 mpw at 700 pace in a couple years I'm probably going to be a lot faster.

2) To the guy who mentioned seeing my log, I'm surprised anyone even looks at my log or cares much at all. It's my experience that no one I know tends to care about my running and thinks I'm wasting my time that according to them I could better spend partying and doing drugs(no thanks lol). But anyways, that 635 pace tempo was my first ever 10 mile tempo and it was super windy that day. I didn't do much threshold work in HS so I'm a little weak at it. 2 years ago I did a 5 or 6 mile tempo(Can't remember) at 655 pace, and ran way harder than my recent 635 pace 10 mile tempo, and then a couple weeks later ran a half marathon race in pouring rain at 635 pace. Last winter I did an 8k tempo which I ran very hard and closed with a sub 70 last lap in 29:28 (555 pace). I run tempos a lot more relaxed and smooth than I used to, at the same effort I could probably run a lot faster for that 8k tempo now.

3) I'll do whatever races I can, but I'm not going to do much speed work. I do strides twice a week for form work, and may start doing them three times a week now. I'll also probably start pushing the pace at the end of training runs now since I'm not focusing on just 2 hard workouts a week. I know its unconventional, but Bill Rodgers and Amby Burfoot ran really well off of very little speed work. Amby ran 120-150 mpw at 645-715 pace while in college. Hopefully I can eventually get my easy pace down to there. Also, Amby would often finish long runs at sub 6 pace the last few miles and sometimes even 5low pace. I'm not strong enough to push much at the end of long runs yet, but as I get more fit I'll probably start closing fast at the end of long runs. And like once or twice a week if I feel good I may just do a hard run. Around when I first started doing 90 mile weeks I decided to do a hard 10 miler just for kicks and ran it at 627 pace in pouring rain, it was a good run; so basically do something like that once or twice a week once I get comfortable enough at the mileage to start pushing some of the runs like that.

4) I know lots of guys ran really well with moderate or even low mileage. Lagat, Lawi, and Sambu over in Arizona run really well off only 1 run a day 6 days a week. Lawi did a 14 mile long run at 507 pace a few weeks before pulling the mile/3k double at NCAA indoors. Those guys run hard every single day. There training is no doubt harder than mine. I simply can't handle that intensity of training. I peak fast when I do workouts, and my body simply can't handle high quality. I tried mimicking their training for a week just to see what it was like. Thats when I ran 10 miles at 627 pace on the Monday then came back and did 5x1mile on the track on Tuesday. After those 2 days I was spent and went back to regular training to recover. They only run once a day, but it is such high quality. No wonder Lagat is world class off 60 mpw. I just can't handle that training. Nothing they do is slow. Maybe some day I'll try that training again when I'm in my 30s or something, but training that hard isn't fun. I like having running be fun, a nice easy pace with an occasional fast finish is fun and something I can handle without breaking down.

where might i get access to your log. are you still frequent on RWOL? i'm under the username unireed on there if you remember me. i don't post in the high school forums though

i won't criticize any of your current workouts. you've just boosted mileage a ton and won't have adjusted yet. on my bad days, running even one 6:30 mile would be awful despite having done tempos at 5:40 pace

oh and about your comment about nobody caring...when you get to college and start running with better guys, they'll care. none of the guys i went to high school with would care what i'm doing now, but my college friends are interested.

also, consider learnign another thing besides runnign before you start college. something cool that will get you a few friends. something like frisbee golf or ultimate frisbee. or even bowling. i don't know you at all, but from what you've said you sound like you could be like me, just into running with no other real life. you dont need to ever go near alchohol or weed to be a cool dude.