I was just having a dig to find out a little more about him. I was aware he was previously a 400m Hurdler so obviously more of a speed influenced 800m runner, I just wasn't quite aware of how much so. He ran 10.44 and 20.86 in high school.
To have that kind of raw speed and yet still run sub-1.44 for 800 is surely unprecedented?
Montezuma wrote:
I was just having a dig to find out a little more about him. I was aware he was previously a 400m Hurdler so obviously more of a speed influenced 800m runner, I just wasn't quite aware of how much so. He ran 10.44 and 20.86 in high school.
To have that kind of raw speed and yet still run sub-1.44 for 800 is surely unprecedented?
That's sick as sht. You can tell he's fast from the way his stride is in an 800m. He kind of overstrides. But I bet you that his speed isn't as good right now. There's no way he can run a 20.86 and still go sub-144. I really wonder what he could run for 1500m... maybe like 3:55?
These days plenty of professional 800 guys have sub 11 100m speed (or at least pretty close). Anyone who can go sub 46 for a 400 is sub 11 for a 100. But this guy is without a doubt the fastest ever 100/200 guy to move up. Its a safe bet he can no longer run 10.44 but imo he can still go somewhere around 10.75/21.3ish.
this should be a let's run dream. this is the wariner wet dream come true.
What we need now, is someone to find out who is currently coaching him, and what his training is like.
I know I sure would like that information.
1500m runners have always had success at the 800 because it is still highly aerobic. But I have also always felt if you could find the fast guy, with the mentality to do the work, you could take B level sprint guys and move them up systematically with success.
Anyone on the case that can tell us how he trains now?
his coach: Abdul Morceli
Daily Relay: How much has your training changed between the two events?
Brandon Johnson: When I ran the hurdles, I considered a long run 20 minutes. Now I find myself doing long runs for 40 or 50 minutes. The training is quite similar in the fact that my coach is able to recognize what I do well and not take away from that. For example, I still do 200m repeats and 150′s but there is less recovery time, more reps and no hurdles. I have to be careful with training because I took two years off. I have to let my body progressively adapt to the workouts and training over the next few years. I’m like a baby learning to walk. I’m far from where I want to be training wise.
The fastest 400m runners of all time are 43+.
The fastest 400m runner to try the 800m had a PB of 44.
Harbig ran 46+ on cinders. Courtney ran 45+ on dirt. Rudisha runs 44+ on the all weather track. The trend is faster runners taking over the event.
These days 45 or 46 relay capability is more or less par for international level. Nobody who runs that fast on relay or 1:42 - 1:46 for 800m is slow unless you compare them to Bolt or Gay.
Most any elite 800m can run sub 10 100m w/ a few meters running start.
This guy is a fascinating case of the short sprinter turned 800 runner. By the sounds of it too with those two years off and switch from 400H to 800m he's still got a lot of potential for improvement which is incredible considering he's already gone sub 1:44 in his first year of 800m running.
I wouldn't be surprised to see him get under 1:43 next year at all which would be incredible. The US may well have 3 medal threats and 3 sub 1:43 guys in the near future!! That's Kenyan-esque depth!
Most any elite 800m can run sub 10 100m w/ a few meters running start.
nope. i bet that not a single elite 800 guy (sub 1:44) could run sub 10 on the fly. maybe B Johnson could have run sub 10 flying back in high school, but not while in 800m shape.
Johnson ran a 1500m only a few weeks ago in 3:53. Check his IAAF profile.
Here, interviewed by letsrun
.............................. wrote:
But I have also always felt if you could find the fast guy, with the mentality to do the work, you could take B level sprint guys and move them up systematically with success.
Ahh, the old Letsrun canard:
"Sprinters don't really train hard"
Just get some sprint guys and have them do long runs and hard work like 10k guys they'd be good at distance running.
How come no one ever wants a distance guy to move down?
actually i don't feel that way at all.
Sprinters train very hard, just in a different way. it is incredibly taxing to run 60meters all out multiple times even if you have 8 minutes rest between each sprint.
sprinters must be born with great genetic gifts of superior nervous systems.
distance runners must be born with great genetic gifts for cardiovascular systems.
Why does Usain Bolt run the 100? Because he can. Now Bolt has openly said he hated trainig for the 400 even though he was World Class. Lucky for him he could be great at the 100.
many short sprinters look at 400 training and fear it.
many 400m runners look at mile training and fear it.
I don't know for sure, but I bet milers have some fear of 10k training
most people choose to stick with the shortest event they are successful at. Those that have love for the sport and training often see the big picture and keep trying to move up as they realize their speed gift doesn't make them competitive "at the next level."
plain and simple, it is easier to gain endurance qualities through training than it is to gain pure speed qualities (not speed endurance) through training.
no one suggests the Carl Lewis, Michael Johnson, or Jeremy Wariner could be great milers or marathoners if they simply trained harder, or trained as distance runners.
middle distance runners are born with superior genetic gifts for the specific speeds and specific endurances required for those distances.
It is fun to hypothesize about Warriner in the 800, because we see his build, and we know of his training from Clyde Hart literature. That isn't a great reach.
Why is Teg moving to marathon? why has lagat moved from 1500 to 5k? why has hasay moved from 1500 to 10k? they feel their pure speed capabilities at the next level require moving up.
My point was that like Brandon Johnson, there are some sprinters that are having success at lower levels (even the major NCAA D1 level) who HAVE genetic capabilities to move up to 800, but they don't because they "fear" it. OR they are satisfied with their current level of success as a lower level sprinter, and then they leave the sport.
Not everyone can move up. A 55 second HS 400 girl may run on a 4x1 in HS, and finish top 3 in state and think she is a sprinter. And for that level she is a successful sprinter. but at the next level 55 seconds is average speed for an 800 woman, and better than average speed for a 1500 woman, and good speed for a 5k woman. The question is, does the 55 sec HS girl have the hidden genetic talent for the middle distance/distance events. Does she have the mentality/desire for the different training. And does she or a coach have the foresight to look at the bigger picture.
Laura Roesler I think won a whole bunch of sub 12 100m state championships in HS. Someone could have been satisfied right there and never explored the next step.
She is near world class at 800m, with NCAA level 400 speed. Could probably run an adequate 1500, and likely would handle a 5k xc race even if she wasn't fully training for it or particulalry liked it.
that is my long winded point, not that any sprinter can just move up, or that they don't train hard.
This is a fantastic interview, with a lot of juicy informative bits. N. Morceli is my favorite 1500m runner, so this is very eye opening. I remember in another thread that A. Morceli loves having his runners do 1k repeats. I wonder if he gives Johnson a healthy dose of those in addition to his 150/200's. It's awesome that he's going for sub 4 and 45.Out of the men's events at Worlds, I'm looking forward to watching the 800m team the most.
.............................. wrote:
his coach: Abdul Morceli
http://dailyrelay.com/5-questions-with-brandon-johnson/
1:43 is fast no matter who's doing it! But I'm not totally shocked that he made the transition from the 400h to the 800. My coach always said that the best 800 runners are 400 hurdlers and her wish was that a high level hurdler gave it a serious attempt. I guess her wish came true.
.............................. wrote:
this should be a let's run dream. this is the wariner wet dream come true.
Bingo. Of course I thought of Wariner too immediately. And while we will don't know for sure that he could have mastered the 800, it seems quite possible he could have, if he was willing to do the same type of training that Johnson has done. Wariner was faster over 200 in HS than Johnson, so he may have been even more of a speed guy than Johnson, however, he certainly was/is a "strength" 400 guy compared to someone like Michael Johnson, or even Usain Bolt (initially a 400 runner).
Also, unlike Johnson, Wariner had no impetus to move up, until at least recently. Maybe he is paying attention, maybe not .
And for those saying that Letsrun always wants runners to "move up", this is actually a speed/sprint-centric viewpoint, NOT a distance/endurance viewpoint. Because we are saying: speed/talent is the key, even for longer distances, if one is willing to/able to put in the requisite endurance work. So if this is the letsrun mantra, all runners with good speed should try the next distance up, then it is actually a speed-centered view. This would not seem to fit the letsrun/jk/brojo mileage advocates, which would seem to suggest the opposite: speed work is not so important, endurance work is key, and with enough endurance, you can move DOWN and beat the speed athletes.
I imagine Alberto Juantorena (44.26/1:43.50 1976 Olympics) had similar short sprint times although I have been unable to find any 100/200 times for him.
Johnson appears to have fantastic upside in the event. Does anyone know why he was out of the sport for two years?
Rudisha's 400 PR is 45.5, so technically it is 44+. It is also 45+.
Former 400m-hurdler (47,48 PB) Harald Schmid also has had great times from 100m to 800m:
100m: 10,3; 200m: 20,68; 400m: 44,92; 800m: 1:44,83.
The 20,68 and 1:44,83 were achieved in the same season (87).
He has had many seasons with 200m times between 20,7 and 21,0; 400m times between 44,9 and 45,31 and 800m times between 1:44,8 and 1:45,5.
And also 13 years with sub 49,0 in the 400m hurdles.
I think his achievements are unique.
Les wrote:I imagine Alberto Juantorena (44.26/1:43.50 1976 Olympics) had similar short sprint times although I have been unable to find any 100/200 times for him
i have little doubt he couda gone 20.2/20.4 ( probably quicker end ) in his 44.26 shape
that monstrous stride wouda eaten up the 200 nearly as good as the 400
it's not inconceivable he couda challenged for the 200 gold in '76 which was won in a pathetic 20.23 ( bronze in 20.43 )
ask any low-44 guy today who doesn't run 200s & ask them what they reckon they coud run it in & i'm sure they'd say ~ 20.2/20.4
Unfortunately Europe does not anymore produce athletes
like Harald Schmid. Duels between Moses and Schmid were
always one of the highlights on european circuit. It was
great to watch on the stands of Rome Olympic stadium one
of the classics of 400m hurdles, when Schmid was very
narrowly beaten by Moses and Harris. Interesting, that
Schmid and Juantorena had very similar 400/800
ratio. At 400 Schmid was 1,49% slower and at 800 1,34% slower. These runners were genuine 400/800 types.