20x200 at mile pace

200m intervals at mile pace seems way a bit slow...400s at mile pace would be more beneficial.

Mile repeats provide excellent speed maintenance work for 10K races and longer. This interval distance is good for hitting the high end of aerobic intensity without the lactac (sp?) acid buildup from 200s and 400s.

xcrunner13 wrote:

I saw that Iry Ray (RWTB) advocates doing 20x200 at mile pace with a (60sec 200m recovery) for xc training after base work.

Is there a place for mile pace repeats in 10k training??

and what benefits come from doing mile pace repeats?

Thanks

60 second recovery or 60 seconds for the whole repeat + recovery?

I'll have to dig out my RWTB, but 40-20 drills are pretty common in several programs where you do 20-30 of them, running your repeat in around 40 seconds waiting for the second hand to hit the minute and go again.

40-20 drills are a hell of a good workout. 30 of them will will leave your dick in the dirt for sure.

Yes, I agree that is a good workout, it is basically like a fartlek if you jog the next 200. IT is not very taxing, Keeps ya fresh for the day after and it helps you with your form and speed.

The rest is jogging 200m in 60 sec.

So this workout is more for form and efficiency and not really mvo2??

it depends how you structure it. 20x200m @ 1500 pace is a staple workout that's been used by guys like Pre and Coe

Usually how I've had it structured is that you start the training year, and one of the workouts you will do is 20x200m @ 1500m with up to 90s jogging 200m. The 200s are at goal 1500 pace for track season and giving up to 90s jogging rest (particularly for underdeveloped runers) makes the workout essentially and LT workout that touches on VO2. This allows us to hit 1500m pace up to 11 months before the peak of track season, but not in such a way that we're going to cause trouble.

Over time, the rest interval is shortened where most "good" athletes will be able to run 20x200m with 60s joggin rest. This is much more VO2 and requires much more stamina. Really good ones, like PRe or Coe, wold take as little as 40s rest.

The approaches Pre and Coe used for this workout were two very different things. Coe approached it as a key interval workout with the reducing recoveries and reducing paces. Pre used it by running the same splits (30 seconds on the fast side and 40 seconds on the slow side) while the variable was the volume. On top of that, Bill Dellinger said that the record at Oregon was 18 laps of the 30/40 drill...not 20 x 200. Besides, Pre's mile pace was faster than 30 for 200m. Coe was hitting 28's, not 30's. You're mixing apples and oranges.

how didfferent is the energy system that was in use?

I would say somewhat significantly since the progression towards these end workouts was different. Coe's top end was 21-22 seconds...so, 28 second repeats falls between 75 and 80% of his top 200m speed. Pre was capable of 23-24. So, 28 seconds would be 80-85% of his top 200m speed. Since Pre was working at a higher anerobic percentage, the workouts were eneretically discrete. Furthermore, you have to consider their physiological strengths and weaknesses. Coe's VO2 Max was lower, but he did possess higher economy. In essence, Coe was doing a miler's workout that had peripheral beneifits. Pre was doing a 3k/5k workout near mile pace. Again, not the same thing.

20 x 220 1 min run + recovery, then 10 min rest, then

20 x 220 1 min run + recovery, then 15 min rest, then

10 x 220 1 min run + recovery

not for everyone

Dude, I can run 50 x 200 straight without rest. You middle distance guys are wimps.

But you just made my point; with respect to their basic speed and 1500m capability, how different was their workout.

If we assume 22.0s for Coe's 200m speed and 24.0 for Pre's, Coe is running his 200s at 127% of 200m speed (essentially mile pace) and PRe is running his at 125% of 200m speed (essentially mile pace).

I disagree that the energy systems were so different - the total volume and the volume of rest were so close

We're looking at it two different ways and you are convinced you're right. No one will show you otherwise. I quit...you never recognize anything unless Tony Benson, Steve Scott or Irv Ray tell you themselves.

I see his point, however I feel that the energy systme in use for that workout by both Coe and Pre was virtually the same; I don't think I'm out of line with that opinion

no one wrote:

20 x 220 1 min run + recovery, then 10 min rest, then

20 x 220 1 min run + recovery, then 15 min rest, then

10 x 220 1 min run + recovery

not for everyone

cool

xcrunner13 wrote:

I saw that Iry Ray (RWTB) advocates doing 20x200 at mile pace with a (60sec 200m recovery) for xc training after base work.

Is there a place for mile pace repeats in 10k training??

and what benefits come from doing mile pace repeats?

Thanks

Try to do up to 20-25x200, 30" off (that recovery of yours seems a bit too long). Start at 3k pace and you will take it toward mile pace toward the end of the cycle. Hard session but great benefits especially if you are a 5k guy

trackhead wrote:

it depends how you structure it. 20x200m @ 1500 pace is a staple workout that's been used by guys like Pre and Coe

Usually how I've had it structured is that you start the training year, and one of the workouts you will do is 20x200m @ 1500m with up to 90s jogging 200m. The 200s are at goal 1500 pace for track season and giving up to 90s jogging rest (particularly for underdeveloped runers)

Over time, the rest interval is shortened where most "good" athletes will be able to run 20x200m with 60s joggin rest. This is much more VO2 and requires much more stamina. Really good ones, like PRe or Coe, wold take as little as 40s rest.

Yes.

Week to week - as you chart your ability to hit both the ins AND outs, focusing on reps where your focus can slip, shortening rest - it is pretty cool to see not only the rapid improvement in this workout, but longer intervals as well, and then tempos, and racing.

If, or when, i get in a good rhythm training almost becomes more fun than races.

A more reliable workout for the 5K would be to do 3 or 4 X Mile at a decreasing race pace % as the season progresses. Recoveries could be 2 minutes and shorter as the athlete gets more fit.

trackhead wrote:

Usually how I've had it structured is that you start the training year, and one of the workouts you will do is 20x200m @ 1500m with up to 90s jogging 200m. The 200s are at goal 1500 pace for track season and giving up to 90s jogging rest (particularly for underdeveloped runers) makes the workout essentially and LT workout that touches on VO2. This allows us to hit 1500m pace up to 11 months before the peak of track season, but not in such a way that we're going to cause trouble.

This is the correct answer. For lower level athletes it could be more like 10 x 200 early in the training cycle. Totally designed for biomechanics, not actual race fitness. I don't even know if you would count it as a "quality day" during the pre season. During the cross country build up, your big fitness gains should be coming from your total weekly volume, steady state runs, and maybe some threshold type efforts. As the season progresses, the recovery on the 200s can come down and the volumes can come up and that session can become more of the main session for the week.

A progression that I've used to target lactate tolerance went something like this.

Summer: one weekly session of 4 miles easy + 1200m of drills and strides + 4-6 x 150-200, full recovery

September: (only once in the month, because we are racing by this point) 20 x 200 @ mrp with 20 seconds recovery

October: 1 session of 10 x 400 @ mrp with 60 seconds recovery. 1 session of Cannova style hill circuits mixing uphill running with drills and calisthenics (jump squats, burpies, bounding, etc...). Each rep takes 3:30-4:00 min and causes the athlete to go DEEP into anaerobic debt. Full recovery, 4-5 total reps.

November: 1 session of the Cannova style hills.

I feel that the low intensity fast stuff during the summer allows us to transition to the super intense fast stuff late in the season a little more smoothly.

Coincidentally I did this session for the first time yesterday. Averaged 32.5 across the 20 reps. 80 sec recovery . Slightly faster reps on 4,8,12,16 and 20 with an extra 60 sec static recovery. 2.00 800m and 4.34 miler.