Average high school 3200, 1600, and 800 meter times

1:53.35 was the fastest 800 in Iowa last year, which was run at the state meet. Other than that, everything looks correct.

Thanks for putting this out there. I am so tired of folks on here calling 9:17 guys 'mediocre'.

I'd say 4:40/10:20 are average times for high school kids. 4:30/10:00 is slightly above average. But when we toss around the word "average" we're comparing those times to the surplus of guys running 4:20s/9:30s in the nation as a whole. From the perspective of D1 coaches, 4:30/10:00 is slow.

You don't have a concept of average do you? 11:24 and 5:15 sound about right.

hmmm..... wrote:

You don't have a concept of average do you? 11:24 and 5:15 sound about right.

Go to most high school varsity track meets, and the only place you might see 11:24/5:15 is in last place.

Interesting topic.

Yeah, people saying that 4:30/10:00 is "average" are quite a bit out of touch.

For another reference, here are the medians for Washington over the last three years (courtesy athletic.net)...

Boys - (2012, 2011, 2010)

3200m: 11:14.02 (833/1765), 11:17.10 (853/1705), 11:18.90 (893/1785)

1600m: 5:14.85 (1491/2981), 5:15.02 (1461/2921), 5:14.42 (1456/2912)

800m: 2:20.65 (1310/2620), 2:20.89 (1272/2543), 2:20.89 (1309/2617)

Girls -

3200m: 13:09.62 (550/1100), 13:11.52 (522/1043), 13:09.83 (535/1070)

1600m: 6:12.00 (950/1899), 6:14.64 (910/1820), 6:10.90 (912/1824)

800m: 2:46.90 (943/1886), 2:47.65 (896/1792), 2:46.13 (941/1881)

...

What to take from all this?

Given that Washington is, I believe, considered one of the strongest states (top-10 if not top-5), and Iowa about median (I'd say a little better than median, though probably not top-20), the medians aren't too far off in the 1600m, but Washington stronger at 3200 and Iowa at 800...

1. This suggests that either Iowa is less restrictive to the kids that run the 800 (coaches aren't as willing to put them in the event), or that the training in the average training program in Iowa is better suited for the event

2. This suggests that either Washington is less restrictive to the kids that run the 3200 (coaches aren't as willing to put them in the event), or that the training in the average training program in Washington is better suited for the event

3. Given that I think the gap grows bigger as the race distance gets longer, and due to the fact that a greater percentage of athletes have 3200m times in Washington than in Iowa (24.05% of all distance marks in Washington vs. 22.96% in Iowa), I think it's the average training programs that are different. Probably higher mileage/more tempo runs in Washington versus more fast intervals/speedwork in Iowa.

cbenson4 wrote:

hmmm..... wrote:

You don't have a concept of average do you? 11:24 and 5:15 sound about right.

Go to most high school varsity track meets, and the only place you might see 11:24/5:15 is in last place.

But that's the difference: "Varsity" versus "Everyone".

Of course the average "Varsity" athlete is going to be notably better than the "Average" athlete.

watchout wrote:

Interesting topic.

Yeah, people saying that 4:30/10:00 is "average" are quite a bit out of touch.

For another reference, here are the medians for Washington over the last three years (courtesy athletic.net)...

Boys - (2012, 2011, 2010)

3200m: 11:14.02 (833/1765), 11:17.10 (853/1705), 11:18.90 (893/1785)

1600m: 5:14.85 (1491/2981), 5:15.02 (1461/2921), 5:14.42 (1456/2912)

800m: 2:20.65 (1310/2620), 2:20.89 (1272/2543), 2:20.89 (1309/2617)

Girls -

3200m: 13:09.62 (550/1100), 13:11.52 (522/1043), 13:09.83 (535/1070)

1600m: 6:12.00 (950/1899), 6:14.64 (910/1820), 6:10.90 (912/1824)

800m: 2:46.90 (943/1886), 2:47.65 (896/1792), 2:46.13 (941/1881)

...

What to take from all this?

Given that Washington is, I believe, considered one of the strongest states (top-10 if not top-5), and Iowa about median (I'd say a little better than median, though probably not top-20), the medians aren't too far off in the 1600m, but Washington stronger at 3200 and Iowa at 800...

To add to your points -

You correctly point out that Washington is considered a stronger distance state than Iowa. This is because it has more guys in the 8:50 to 9:30 range. One would not expect this fact to have anything to do with what is happening with the average runner.

Washington has over twice the population of Iowa. There is also a strong history of elite distance athletes (as there is in CA, NY, TX...). Both of these facts will greatly tilt the odds in favor of Washington over Iowa when it comes to elite athletes. Neither of these will likely have any impact whatsoever on the median athlete. There is simply no reason to expect the average Joe in Washington to be any different than the average Joe in Iowa.

I thought this was going to be a question in which the Letsrun geniuses determine that the "average" times are 10:12, 4:39, and 2:00 because anything beyond that "sucks."

watchout wrote:

cbenson4 wrote:

Go to most high school varsity track meets, and the only place you might see 11:24/5:15 is in last place.

But that's the difference: "Varsity" versus "Everyone".

Of course the average "Varsity" athlete is going to be notably better than the "Average" athlete.

I see your point and you are right, but in the LRC, when people are talking about "average" times, they are usually discussing varsity athletes. I will admit it is true that if you include JV athletes, it changes what i would consider to be the average high school runner. I was wrongly assuming we were talking about varsity.

I don't have an easy way of checking my state's overall list, but having competed as both JV and Varsity as well as seen numerous of those meets run, this would be my guess.

Overall, I think an average high school (male) runner should be 4:59 or faster, 2:14 or faster and I'd say 11:20 or faster. Much in accordance with those times shown from statistics. Your average JV guys are more like 2:24, 5:20 and 11:40. Your average Varsity runners are significantly faster. I'd say sub-2:05, sub-4:40 and sub 10:20 puts you at the average level of a Varsity race. Finishing right in the middle of the pack.

Yep, pretty much.

Also, noticed there was a typo in my post: times were right, but 2012 median 3200m was 883/1765 not 833/1765.

You'd think there isn't much variance in caliber of median athletes. The only thing that would really change that is things like:

1. Altitude vs. Sea-level

2. More opportunities for similar caliber competition

3. Better-than-average knowledge for the average coaches

4. Weather (average kids in winter-weather states like Minnesota/Colorado/the Dakotas probably won't put in as much of a base as average kids in nice-weather states like Florida/California/Texas)

... which suggests that the median times is probably lower at low-population, high-altitude, cold-weather states like Wyoming and probably best at low altitude/high population/non-winter states like (Southern) California. The effects will be much more noticeable at longer distances though, and probably not all that noticeable at 800m.

#3 is probably only really possible for small states, because when you have 200+ coaches in the state, there is probably going to be a wide variety of how knowledgable they are going to be, but if you have a state with like 50-100 coaches and plenty of good coaching workshops (or whatever) that most coaches go to and learn from, that would probably improve the average training.

Median times wouldn't be average. The average time would be slower than the median. There will be more 13 plus minute runners than sub 10, I'd imagine.

Looking at the Iowa times, there were significantly more runners in the 12:48 plus range than those 10:00 and under (139 to 54), which are both 1:24 from the median of 11:24, so I would imagine the "average" time falls more in the 11:40-11:50 range. Though, I think median, in this case, is a better indicator of an "average" performance.

Also, in the 1600, there are 64 sub 4:35 performances compared to 109 performances of 6:05 and over, both 40 seconds from the median time of 5:15. Based on this, the "average" 1600 time is probably more like 5:20-5:25...but, again, 5:15, the median, falls in line with what I would consider a true "average".

In the 800, there are 43 sub 2:00 performances and 244 times 2:37 or over, both 19 seconds from the median of 2:18. This indicates that "average" would more like 2:25-2:30.

In any case, I think this thread does a good job of putting times in proper perspective, especially since so many on LetsRun are snobbish in their critiques of performances.

You could probably find an "average" varsity time by taking all the varsity meets competed during a Saturday weekend, combining all the times listed and finding the average of that set of numbers. It probably shifts from division to division, but I would imagine an average varsity time might be....five flat?

I'm going off my biased experiences for mile times and that seems to be an appropriate number. You pay attention to the faster times like 4:30, not the slower 5:15 times.

If you are saying league meets the averages look about right. To me the standard to be slightly above avg in hs is breaking 5 mins in the mile.

Go to a championship or invite and you go up a level in competition.

cbenson4 wrote:

I'd say 4:40/10:20 are average times for high school kids. 4:30/10:00 is slightly above average. But when we toss around the word "average" we're comparing those times to the surplus of guys running 4:20s/9:30s in the nation as a whole. From the perspective of D1 coaches, 4:30/10:00 is slow.

Agreed. When we say "average", we're talking about "average top performers". I don't know why people get so dense about this. A 4:30 guy is a very average and mediocre top guy.

I will disagree with you on your last line though. There are plenty of d1 schools that would recruit a 4:30 guy. There are plenty of non-d2 schools.s that wouldn't be that impressed with a 4:30 guy.

4:30 is not average, even among college bound runners. 4:30 is a state qualifying time in most states, even placing in many small school divisions. If you looked at what the average high school 1600 times for college competitors, it'll be over 4:40 I bet, if you look at D-1 through D-3 and NAIA.

Cool post. Looking at the numbers from the OP, the 3200 times (both the medians and the worst times) are significantly better than those for the 1600 and 800. For example, I would say an 11:24 is more respectable than a 5:15 or 2:18. However, I guess that makes sense though as a coach is probably not going to put their worst distance runners in a 3200 just to get lapped when they could instead put them in a non-seeded heat of the 1600 or 800.